Know Thyself: The Power of Self-Awareness in Acting and Life with Kamil Haque

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Hello, and welcome to Every Moment is a Choice.

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I'm your host, Erika Behl, and I invite you to join me on a transformative journey to

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uncover the extraordinary potential that lies within every single moment of our lives.

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From the choices we make in our relationships, careers, and personal growth, to the mindset

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we embrace in the face of adversity, this podcast will empower you to embrace the notion

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that every moment holds a choice, and it's up to us to seize it.

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Join me as we engage in insightful conversations with thought leaders, experts, and everyday

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people who have harnessed the power of choice to achieve greatness, overcome obstacles,

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and create extraordinary lives.

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If you feel inspired by this episode, please read it and consider subscribing.

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I'm keen to know how it's impacted you.

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Today I'm elated to have Kamil Haque on the podcast, but I want to start a little bit

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different today.

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I'd like to invite you, the listener, to do a short breathing exercise with us.

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It's easy and will take no more than 30 seconds.

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So wherever you're listening to this, let's do this together.

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The breathing exercise is going to be four counts inhale, seven counts hold, as in holding

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your breath, and eight counts exhale.

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So we'll do it two times.

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I'm going to count for you.

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Okay?

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Ready?

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Inhale, two, three, four.

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Hold, two, three, four, five, six, seven.

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Exhale, two, three, four, five, six, seven.

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Eight.

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Inhale, one, two, three, four.

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Hold, two, three, four, five, six, seven.

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Exhale, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight.

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What we just did is called four, seven, eight breathing.

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And it's one of the first things you learn in the Haque method of acting.

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My guest, Kamil Haque, is the founder and artistic director of his own acting school, the Haque

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Center of Acting and Creativity, HCAC for short, as well as his own production company,

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Method Productions.

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Kamil was born and bred in Singapore.

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And like many young aspiring actors, he packed up and went to Los Angeles at 22.

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He started as a student at the Lee Strasburg Theater and Film Institute before going on

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to become the youngest and first Asian to teach at the Institute.

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This is the same institution, by the way, where actors like Sally Field, Harvey Keitel,

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John Voight and his daughter honed their craft.

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Kamil also graduated top of his class at the American Musical and Dramatic Academy and

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was the first student in its 50-year history to graduate with honors in acting.

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So Singaporean, by the way.

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As Asia's only experienced teacher of the Lee Strasburg method of acting, Kamil has

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derived his own method called the HAC method that he also teaches.

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Over 10 years running HCAC, Kamil has coached over 10,000 students, some of whom have gone

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on to appear in award-winning Hollywood films, stage productions, television shows and commercials

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around the world.

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Most of those students, though, are not full-time professional actors.

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They are corporate employees with a dream to do improv on the weekends.

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They are creative double lifers.

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They are TEDx speakers.

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They are startup founders pitching to venture capitalists for the first time.

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They are people with a story to tell who don't yet know how to tell it.

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That's why this discussion is not only about acting today.

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This applies to everyone in life, because if you don't tell your own story, someone

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else will.

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Let's dive in.

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Welcome, Kamil.

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Hi, Erika.

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Thanks for being with us today.

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So my first question, the Haque method of acting starts with a workshop called Know Thyself.

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What does knowing yourself have to do with acting?

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I think there are a lot of misconceptions as to what acting is to the layman.

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If you were to ask someone how they would define it, very often they might mistake it

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with pretending or lying or being someone else.

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Are there crossovers with those things?

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Yes.

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However, the root of acting is really about truthful behavior and being as truthful as

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you can, whether it's you being yourself or you portraying someone else in imaginary circumstances.

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In order to be truthful or the buzzword in the corporate space, authentic, one really

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needs to have a full understanding of oneself and one's abilities and the instrument that

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you have.

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When I say instrument, I mean your physical self, your intellectual self, your spiritual

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self, your psychological self, so that you know how to tune it to play the different

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roles that you have in your personal life, professional life, creative life.

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So it always starts with know thyself.

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It's something that you'd think people that would come naturally to most people, but in

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fact, I think it's really useful for people to understand how do you come to know yourself?

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What are some of the things that someone explores in that first workshop?

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Well, one of the main things that we begin to understand with acting at this very introductory

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level is that we already act on a daily basis and we play different roles on a daily basis.

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You're someone's mother, someone's sister, someone's partner, and so on and so forth.

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How do you adjust yourself and be the most truthful, authentic, best version of yourself

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in that transaction?

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So in this introductory level, we're examining the different transactions we have in our

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life and we are beginning to understand, here's where I am now and maybe here's where I want

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to be and what are the gaps in between?

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What are the creative gaps and what are the things that I can put into practice so I can

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close that creative gap, as Ira Glass calls it, to be the best version of myself in that

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transaction?

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So I'm learning things like, where do I put my focus and concentration?

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How do I observe myself in the world around me better?

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How do I begin to be comfortable being vulnerable both in private and also in public?

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How do I give myself permission to be myself versus the presupposed version that people

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expect me to be?

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These are just some of the things that one is taught at this very introductory stage

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of knowing thyself.

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And I have to admit for the listeners, I went through this workshop.

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So last year, I signed up for two of the Hock Method workshops at HCAC and I'm a person

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no one would associate with me with method acting, trust me.

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I'm rational.

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I was very corporate.

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I was lots of things.

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But you know what I found is that in this workshop, where people from all walks of life,

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people who are aspiring to be paid as professional actors, people who never had really any intention

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of acting but were interested in, like you said, understanding themselves better and

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being able to, I guess, be more authentic in how they come across.

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One of the things you said there, you mentioned transactions.

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And I remember one of the things you stress in the course is that everything happens in

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transaction.

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Can you explain that a little bit more?

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Whether we realize it or not, we're constantly transacting with the world around us.

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And when I say transacting, if I were to boil it down into the different types of transactions

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that exist, there are at least four different types that I can rattle off.

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One is verbal transactions.

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Like right now, I'm talking to you.

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So that's just a verbal thing.

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I'm not sure if your viewers can see it, but I have an Italian habit with my hands.

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I constantly talk with my hands.

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And then conscious.

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I'm consciously explaining to you what transactions are, the concept of transactions.

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And then there are the most insidious one of them all, which is the unconscious transactions

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that we make, which are sometimes we call them ticks and leakages in the body, areas

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where we hold tension.

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I noticed that as soon as I said that, all of a sudden you adjusted your spine just to

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like, oh my gosh, am I holding my spine upright?

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And there are things that we do that we may not be aware of that end up unconsciously

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corrupting or diluting the message or the power of our story.

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And so how can we begin to be aware of these transactions that we have in our personal

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life, in our professional life, so that we can begin to minimize where the leakages happen

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and then maximize that same energy that goes into a leak into the telling or the sharing

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of the story.

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So it sounds like it's a consciousness of where your energy is, where your presence

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is so that you're able to direct that.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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Because it's all just energy, really.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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We are all energy.

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Correct.

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Interesting.

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So you have a lot of, you've worked with 10,000 students.

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Why do you think people come to you apart from the ones who actually want to become

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professional actors?

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But it seems like there are people who struggle to tell their stories.

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They know kind of who they are, but they struggle to tell that story.

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Do you think they come to you?

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I certainly came to you.

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I'm giving myself away as to my motivation for coming to HCAC, but why do you think people

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struggle to tell their own stories?

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Why do people struggle to tell their own stories?

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If I were to boil it down to a couple of different factors, I reckon the most frequent one that

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I see is the lack of permission that one has in one's life.

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That could be external permission from the various circles of influence that one might

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have in one's life, be it one's workplace or family or support system.

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That's the external permissions.

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And then also there's the internal permissions, like my story is not good enough.

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I'm not worthy enough to tell the story.

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I don't have the ability to tell the story.

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If I told a story, who on earth would want to listen to my story?

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There's all sorts of these internal imposter syndrome things that happen.

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And so it is knowing that when you come to me to work with me, that I'm going to remind

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you that you've always had this permission.

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And if you didn't think you had this permission, then I'm going to say, well, if you didn't

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know you have it, now I'm consciously telling you, you have the space and you have the resources

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and you definitely have the outward permission to speak your truth, to power, whatever that

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means to you.

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And this will be a censorship free space to express whatever it is that you feel you need

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to get off your chest.

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I mean, I'm going to ask you, why did you feel that you could tell your story with me?

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With you?

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Yeah.

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I agree that you made a safe space.

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It felt, it wasn't the only the physical studio, which also felt very cozy and very almost

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private in a way where we were with a group of people, as long as we all agreed that we

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were all going to be vulnerable with each other, there was no one going to barge in

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and disrupt that.

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So I felt that it was a kind of sense of safety once you walked in the room.

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And that was created by you, by the other, I think the other students also created that.

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Am I right?

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Yeah, sure, sure, sure.

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I mean, no right or wrong here, right?

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I mean, but, you know, so, okay, so you, you walked in and you felt, okay, this feels like

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a safe space.

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Was that the only reason why you felt, okay, I can tell my story here or explore my story

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here?

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I think it was because other people were being vulnerable as well.

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And once I saw other people doing that, I was able to open up myself.

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But as you know, when I worked on, so there was various projects that you work on as a

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student and I worked on a monologue that I wrote, that I wrote.

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And I recall that I was, it was quite an emotional, personal monologue and I was practicing it.

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And you might not remember the feedback you gave me, but I said, I think you said something,

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you're playing it safe.

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You know, you're not really showing what I think you want to show with this monologue.

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And so it took some exercises where we were very, I think you had to really endeavor to

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create a safe space for me to really let it out and know that it was just you and me in

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that room on that day and really let it out.

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And then kind of harness some of that to bring to the actual performance.

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Which you did.

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Which I did.

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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On your own, mind you.

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Yes.

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So I felt like that was a very, it went deep.

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And I remember that, another thing you said, I remember a lot of things you said.

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You mentioned, you know, after a performance, you should feel drained.

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Otherwise, it probably wasn't worth watching.

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And I can tell you that after I had no clue that I would feel so drained after, you know,

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like a five minute monologue or even less than five minutes, maybe three minutes.

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But it was an emotional draining experience to show that.

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And so, I mean, what do you mean by that when you say that you should feel exhausted by

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the end of a performance?

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So we go back to the idea of you are your own instrument and you are made of these different

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components that you can tune to tell whatever story that you want to tell.

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So as mentioned, there's the physical component, the intellectual component, the spiritual,

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emotional, psychological component.

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And whether you are literally sharing a true story from your life or you are advocating

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on behalf of an imaginary character, it requires a level of will.

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It requires a level of putting your own ego and your own self-consciousness aside.

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It requires a level of transformation.

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It requires a level of shedding of whatever guards and walls that may exist.

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And in the doing of this act, whatever it may be, you are then drawing down on the resources

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that you have to play with, which is your physical, mental, spiritual, and so on and

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so forth.

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And so if you have really invested in your preparation, then in the working of the story

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and just after, you will ideally feel physically, mentally, spiritually drained in some capacity.

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And as well, you should because then it showed that you cared enough to prepare it to the

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degree that it needed to be prepared.

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And you cared enough to deliver it in the way that you felt proud of the work that you

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did.

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And you felt that I put everything and myself on the line for this, whatever, three-minute

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thing that I did.

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And if you like it, great.

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If you don't, that's also okay.

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But I know that I can look at myself in the mirror and know I could not have done any

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better.

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So all of that force of nature that one exerts within that two minutes, three minutes requires

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energy.

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And I think this is where I put the caveat disclaimer thing of knowing the difference

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between when your work must cost you something and when your work hurts.

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And your work should never, and I use should very rarely, should never hurt you.

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Because if you're hurting, then you're no good to yourself, let alone to your community.

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How do we understand the resources so that we can work with them and then also recharge

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them without feeling pain, stress, burnout, I need to take a year-long sabbatical, or

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I'll never come back to this room again.

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I don't care how safe you made it.

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All of those things are then the most pointless.

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You want to be able to do the work, recharge, and come back again.

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It's a lesson I've had to learn.

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And not even in an acting context, but I think it was something I took away from HCAC was

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that the work should not hurt.

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And coming off a corporate career where I was burned out and stressed, and now starting

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my own business, I made that commitment to myself of I shouldn't just be heading for

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another burnout as a result of this.

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What are the boundaries that I need to set?

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What are the self-care that I need to take care of to ensure that I work hard and I'm

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proud of what I put out there, but it's not going to drain me to the extent that it's

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hurting me?

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Absolutely.

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So such a critical lesson, I think, for most people to learn.

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Yeah.

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Even myself, yeah, absolutely.

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I'm constantly having to remind myself of how do I maintain really, really active boundaries

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in my personal life?

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Because when you love what you do, very often it bleeds into your personal life, but it

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also bleeds into your personal time.

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And then like, wait a minute, I thought I was meeting for coffee.

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How did this end up being a coaching session?

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That's not what this was meant to be.

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And then that's not looking after yourself.

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So I've had to learn that over time, being comfortable with saying, no, I'm not going

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to meet you today.

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And is that how you learned it is just by setting those boundaries around your time?

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Or are there any other techniques that you've learned to kind of maintain your sense of?

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You know, I've had to learn it the hard way, simply because as strange as this sounds and

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as inclusive as the performing arts may be, it not till maybe three to five years ago,

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I'm going to say around the time of the Me Too movement, actually, for some, I don't know

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what the correlation is there, did self care and self soothing and practicing active boundaries

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become a more active conversation in the day to day?

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And even now, if one were to Google or look up how does one practice active boundary making

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within the performing arts and creative arts, there's really not a lot of work out there

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that teaches you how to do these things.

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And so for myself, I've had to allow myself to be hurt or not allow myself.

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I've had I've hurt myself.

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I've had to hurt others.

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I've had to have my boundaries be crossed many times.

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I've had to feel pain and stress and burnout enough times to recognize where I needed to

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draw the line.

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And even then, sometimes I'm still not that great at it.

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And I'm fortunate that I have at least one or two.

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Can I say the word bullshit alarms?

295
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I don't know if this is like a family friendly.

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I've got enough bullshit alarms in my life that now tell me, come on, they're doing it

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again.

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Oh, fine.

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I'll be fine.

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I'll I'll act the boundaries.

301
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Got it.

302
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Got it.

303
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Got it.

304
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Yeah.

305
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Yeah.

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I'm thinking as you're saying that I'm thinking back to because I knew nothing about acting

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before I started with your with your school.

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And when people just layman hear about method acting, they think about like Daniel Day Lewis

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or these people who kind of immerse themselves in their roles.

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And it seems like there's no boundaries there.

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I mean, the stories you hear, which are maybe rumors, maybe not of people almost going crazy

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because they're so immersed in certain roles.

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I mean, do you think that's something inherent in in method acting as well?

314
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It's inherent in the misunderstanding and ignorance of it.

315
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And it's inherent in the clickbait marketing aspect of method acting, which is what it

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has mutated into.

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If you were to look at the originators of what is now term method acting, at no point

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was it ever extolled that one must hurt oneself.

319
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One must be really difficult to work with on set.

320
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Being a method actor entitles you to all sorts of insane behavior.

321
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It's not at all that it is essentially a methodical way of preparing so you can be as truthful

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as possible.

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End of.

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And, you know, like any, I guess, holy text, one looks at that statement and goes, well,

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I wonder if I could also expand the definition to include X, Y, Z, which oftentimes entails

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hurting yourself, hurting other people, being difficult to work with and all in the name

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of method acting.

328
00:21:55,480 --> 00:22:04,280
And it's unfortunate that one now might associate the term with insane and unforgivable behavior

329
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when really there's so much more to it if you dig below the surface.

330
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:10,120
So interesting.

331
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:14,960
So let's go into method acting because I love your story.

332
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:15,960
Your story is so interesting.

333
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,520
So you moved to L.A. at a very young age to study acting.

334
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,160
So coming from Singapore, that's a big decision.

335
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,560
And I'm not just talking about the flight.

336
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:32,080
OK, like there's a I've been here for 11 years now and I know that there are a lot of expectations

337
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on kids.

338
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There's a lot of things about what's right and what's wrong to do for children and how

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they choose their path in life.

340
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So what drove you to actually move to L.A. at the time?

341
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And did you feel supported?

342
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What drove me to move to L.A.?

343
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,080
I'll give you the the TLDR version of it.

344
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:58,840
So I got pulled into acting because of Robin Williams and Dead Poets Society.

345
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I got pulled into acting because of various mentors in my life.

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I got pulled into acting because I had nobody at home to look after me as a latchkey kid.

347
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I got pulled into acting because I desperately wanted love and attention from people because

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I wasn't getting it at home.

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And I found it through acting.

350
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But I found myself being a people pleaser and a shapeshifter.

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And I knew that that's what I wanted to do with acting, that I wanted to entertain and

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I wanted to hold space for people.

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And it was only in my just before I finished my time with the Singapore Armed Forces that

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I spoke to my very first mentor and she suggested that I consider training overseas.

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And she gave me a bunch of schools that I could have considered.

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And I was so overwhelmed by the options that she gave me and the fact that she also offered

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me a job to teach at her school at the age of 21 that I had forgotten all of these options.

358
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And when I went home to sort of look it up on the interwebs of things, all I could remember

359
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:14,860
was she mentioned a school that sounded a lot like a French football team.

360
00:24:14,860 --> 00:24:20,280
So I typed in Strasbourg acting?

361
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And then Google said, did you mean Lee Strasbourg acting?

362
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I was like, well, yes, Google, I meant that.

363
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And then I clicked on the website not knowing anything about this man and this methodology.

364
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,640
And a lot of his alumni, as you had mentioned, are people that I had greatly admired and

365
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:39,360
respected along with your Pacino's, your De Niro's, your Marilyn Monroe's, James Deans.

366
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I was like, oh, I like their films.

367
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I like their work.

368
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I should probably go there.

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And because I had been a latchkey kid, but I had also come from some level of socioeconomic

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privilege, my parents were like, listen, as long as you like what you're doing and you

371
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stay out of our hair and you keep yourself gainfully occupied, we'll support whatever

372
00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:06,200
crazy business you want to do over there, which is good enough for me.

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And I'm fully aware that I'm in the very, very small minority of being fully supported

374
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:18,560
from a young age to have consistent feet always dipped into the performing arts.

375
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:19,560
Yeah.

376
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:20,560
Interesting.

377
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:27,120
So what about, you said you Googled Strasbourg, you found the Lee Strasbourg School.

378
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:29,920
What about that method worked for you?

379
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,080
Did you try any other methods or kind of dip your toes around?

380
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,080
I did.

381
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:36,080
I did.

382
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:42,760
So what had happened was, again, without doing any research other than looking at the really,

383
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:49,480
really famous alumni, I went to the school sight and scene and it was in truth and in

384
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:58,440
retrospect the first real actor training that I had because prior to that, it was all voice

385
00:25:58,440 --> 00:25:59,640
and speech.

386
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,300
And there's a really famous voice teacher, her name is Patsy Rodenberg, and she calls

387
00:26:04,300 --> 00:26:09,640
it the teeth and tits of acting, which is stand here, say it this way, and everybody

388
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,360
will love you, which is what I had been grounded in.

389
00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:19,240
And going to the Strasbourg School, they weaned me off of that.

390
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,760
And with any conservatory program, they'll break you down for they build you in their

391
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:23,760
image.

392
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:28,120
But part of breaking you down is helping you understand what is the root essence of Kamil?

393
00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:29,640
What does Kamil really want to say?

394
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,000
How does he really want to say it?

395
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,640
What are the impulses that Kamil has that he can now, with the space that we provide

396
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,640
him, follow through with no consequences?

397
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,600
And it was the first time that I felt I didn't have to shape shift.

398
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I didn't have to people please.

399
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,280
It was the first time that I found, oh, I really just have to please myself and be proud

400
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:51,580
of my own work.

401
00:26:51,580 --> 00:26:58,160
It was the first time that I was given tools and skills to examine how to create work that

402
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,720
was truthful, that was authentic.

403
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:06,840
It was the first time that I had people who looked like me, because your viewers might

404
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,360
not know what I look like, but I don't look or nor I guess I don't sound like your average

405
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:11,740
Singaporean.

406
00:27:11,740 --> 00:27:18,360
And so in a city where there are other olive tone folks like me with facial hair who in

407
00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:23,480
a post 9 11 America, they go, ah, you look like one of us.

408
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:33,080
All of these factors allowed me to examine who Kamil was, who Kamil is, who Kamil wanted

409
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:38,080
to be and what sort of work Kamil wanted to put out into the world.

410
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:39,760
That's what that's what they gave me.

411
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,080
I think that's so beautiful.

412
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:46,520
And I find it so ironic that you say it was at an acting school where you learned you

413
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,760
didn't have to shape shift anymore.

414
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:49,760
Mm hmm.

415
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:55,040
There's a massive irony in that because everyone would think that's where you learn how to

416
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:56,040
shape shift.

417
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:57,040
Mm hmm.

418
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:58,040
That's so cool.

419
00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:59,040
I love that.

420
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,600
So what about his method really resonated with you?

421
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,840
Why did you kind of embrace the least Strasburg method?

422
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:15,360
So while while Strasburg forms the main trunk of the techniques that I was exposed to, I

423
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:18,960
had learned other methodologies and I cherry picked what worked and what didn't work.

424
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:25,360
And I didn't really find enough resonance with other methodologies because where I felt

425
00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:33,840
that I was most connected to Strasburg's work was in the idea of the shedding of stuff where

426
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:39,240
again it's sort of related to the know thyself aspect where we carry a lot of unnecessary

427
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:45,420
tension, physical, mental, spiritual tension that inhibits us or prevents us from putting

428
00:28:45,420 --> 00:28:49,560
work out that is truthful, real, authentic, etc, etc, etc.

429
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:55,640
And his work was predicated on the simple things of first can you just shed unnecessary

430
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:56,640
tension?

431
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:03,240
Second, can you I guess in the corporate space we call it being mindful which is can I reconnect

432
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,000
to my five senses, my creative muscles, right?

433
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:12,720
Can I really be aware of what something sounds like, tastes like, feels like, smells like,

434
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:13,720
sounds like?

435
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,840
Can I be aware of how that impacts me?

436
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:24,720
Can I be aware of how I can work with those creative muscles, the sensorial muscles to

437
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,840
form characters, to form stories?

438
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:33,480
It all boiled down to seemingly really, really simple things which is can I relax?

439
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:34,840
Can I use my five senses?

440
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,640
Which is like to the average person it's like oh that's acting school?

441
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,080
I'm like oh yeah buddy go ahead you try it.

442
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:48,920
And you realize how much unnecessary tension we carry and how disconnected we are from

443
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,320
our own bodies and senses.

444
00:29:52,320 --> 00:30:00,080
And that's what really drew me to his work, the shedding of and the being before the doing.

445
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,560
Yeah.

446
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:02,520
Nice.

447
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:09,200
So you actually broke barriers in Hollywood and specifically in method acting.

448
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:14,160
Having the first Asian and the youngest student to teach at the institute.

449
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,960
At the time were you aware of the firsts that you were accomplishing and did that drive

450
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:19,960
you in a way?

451
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:25,320
I love how when you introduced me in the bio you're like oh that's so Singaporean of you.

452
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,800
My parents would be so proud if they heard that introduction because I constantly tell

453
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:34,840
people that I'm a proud failure of the Singapore education system because I didn't find my

454
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,720
academic place in Singapore and I really only found it when I moved to the States.

455
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:46,280
And in this idea of being the first of anything totally did not dawn upon me.

456
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:52,100
I think what had happened was because my mentor had given me a job in Singapore and I worked

457
00:30:52,100 --> 00:30:58,920
for about a year teaching special needs kids, speech and drama and just basic life skills

458
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:04,080
and I was in a preschool so I was there Monday through Saturday and by the end of the year

459
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,320
I was like oh I know everything about teaching yeah.

460
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:15,840
And I arrive in LA and it's January 3rd 2005 and I'm there for the big tour before school

461
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:17,520
opens one week later.

462
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,000
So the administrator takes me around the school and then she says okay now we come back to

463
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:26,400
the office here's the class schedule you need to pick some classes and I look at the schedule

464
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:31,320
and her name was Adette and I take the paper and I'm like no Adette I don't want to pick

465
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,000
classes and she's like huh?

466
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:39,400
No maybe you don't understand me classes start next week you need to pick classes.

467
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:44,320
I said no no I understand you perfectly well I'm just I'm not picking classes and then

468
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:49,760
she's like oh but you flew all the way here you don't want to do the classes anymore?

469
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:54,040
And I'm like oh no no I still want to do the classes but what I really want is I want to

470
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,080
teach here and she's like huh?

471
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,080
Excuse me what?

472
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:02,800
I'm like I've taught one whole year in Singapore I want to teach here what will it take for

473
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,520
me to teach here?

474
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,080
And then she's like oh no one's ever asked us that before and I said well I am and I

475
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:14,320
want to teach here and then she's we had this whole back and forth thing and then she basically

476
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:18,160
knew that she was not going to get me out of the office or pick my classes until we

477
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:23,000
had a compromise and she said listen A I cannot let you teach here and that's because you

478
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:24,240
don't know what we teach.

479
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:30,520
I'm like okay fine fair enough but B this program is really really really hard so if

480
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,240
you can even last the two-year program then maybe we'll consider letting you teach is

481
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,760
that good enough for you so that you can pick some classes and get out of my office?

482
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,800
I'm like well that's good enough for me.

483
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:47,700
So I picked my classes and I carried on and in my head I already knew that I was coming

484
00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:52,760
into the school with the idea to learn not only what the techniques and the tools and

485
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:58,400
the skills were but how do I learn it in a way that I can also teach it?

486
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:03,920
Was I aware that I was the youngest that they'd ever hired later on in the program?

487
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:04,920
No.

488
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,440
Was I aware that they were the first Asian that they had hired?

489
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:09,440
Absolutely not at all.

490
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:14,080
It was only much later on where someone said hey are you aware of these things?

491
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:19,840
I'm like oh well okay yeah it's not it wasn't important to me it was more important that

492
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:21,920
I picked up how to teach.

493
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:28,160
So interesting to me so you went from teaching in a preschool to saying I'm going to teach

494
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,160
here.

495
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,160
Yeah to a bunch of adults.

496
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,080
So I don't think we've explored that yet.

497
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,680
Where did the urge to teach?

498
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:41,880
Because you could have just started auditioning become an actor which is what maybe what most

499
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,080
people do.

500
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:44,640
Where did the urge to teach come from?

501
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:45,640
Robin Williams.

502
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,560
Dead Poets Society.

503
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:48,560
Full circle.

504
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:49,560
Full circle.

505
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:50,560
It was full circle yeah.

506
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:55,800
I just rewatched the film this past weekend and because I wanted to introduce my wife

507
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,840
to it she had never seen it and she heard me talk about it again and again and again

508
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:04,360
and again and how influential it was on my life and she's like well we've got some time

509
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,400
let's watch it tonight.

510
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:12,840
And what drew me to the film was the fact that I got my parents attention by asking

511
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:17,320
them questions about the film and I'd never experienced that in my life.

512
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:24,140
And it was only much later on that really what drew me to the film was how unorthodox

513
00:34:24,140 --> 00:34:26,520
Robin Williams' character was in the film.

514
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,620
How charismatic he was in influencing his students.

515
00:34:30,620 --> 00:34:32,200
How much he held space for them.

516
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:37,080
How much he gave them the permission to free their voice, free their talents.

517
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:43,520
That was the stuff that shifted something in me on a DNA level that I only realized

518
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,120
in that year of teaching in 2004 with Special Needs Kids.

519
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,640
I was like this is what I want to do.

520
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:51,640
Wow.

521
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:52,640
Interesting.

522
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,920
Okay, I keep saying that interesting but it is.

523
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:04,980
So you were teaching in LA for a while but now you're back here in Singapore and you've

524
00:35:04,980 --> 00:35:09,380
had your HCAC school running for 10 years now.

525
00:35:09,380 --> 00:35:13,160
So what prompted the move back to Singapore to teach?

526
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,260
The goal was always to come back to teach.

527
00:35:15,260 --> 00:35:22,000
The goal was always to create a space that didn't exist so that people like me or with

528
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:28,000
similar ambitions to me or with similar backgrounds to me or people with less access than me could

529
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:35,000
have the same opportunity that I had and the same platform that I experienced in LA.

530
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:36,000
That was always the goal.

531
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,680
I just didn't think I was going to come back this early.

532
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,360
In my head, I had always said it as I'll come back when I'm 45 and then that will be my

533
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:44,920
retirement plan.

534
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:49,440
I came back by accident at the age of 30 and I never looked back.

535
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:50,680
Wow.

536
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:55,400
And so you went to work starting up the school as soon as you got back?

537
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:56,400
Yeah.

538
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,720
Well, so this is where the accident happened.

539
00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:05,340
I came back to start a film festival, the first ever ASEAN film festival where all 10

540
00:36:05,340 --> 00:36:07,920
nations came together with films and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

541
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:13,320
In putting together this ASEAN film festival, it opened up a lot of conversations and doors

542
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:19,840
for me to the point that when the festival was done and it was held in Malaysia, I called

543
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,400
up my buddy Raymond, who was house setting for me for about three months.

544
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:29,240
And I said, Hey, Raymond, first of all, happy April Fools, but this is not April Fools.

545
00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:30,680
I'm not coming back to LA.

546
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:32,480
Can you sell my house in my car?

547
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,080
Do you mind shipping me back some of my clothes and books?

548
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:36,700
If you want my TV, you can have it.

549
00:36:36,700 --> 00:36:39,880
Whatever money you make from selling my furniture, send some of it back.

550
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,000
But if you really want it for the work that you're doing, I'd really appreciate it.

551
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,480
I'm not coming back because I'm starting my school.

552
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:45,480
Okay, thanks.

553
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,600
And he's like, say what?

554
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,560
I'm like, you heard me that I meant exactly what I said.

555
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,760
And he's like, this is a lot of work, but fine, I'll do it for you.

556
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,280
And that was April 1st of 2013.

557
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,760
And I started the studio June 3rd of 2013.

558
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,320
Wow, that's fast.

559
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:03,320
Yeah.

560
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:04,320
I mean, well, it's Singapore, right?

561
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,360
You can start a business, you know, like that.

562
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:07,360
Fifteen minutes.

563
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:08,360
Yeah, exactly.

564
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:09,360
Lovely.

565
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:15,120
So when you were first getting it started, did you have kind of a ready market of people

566
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:21,120
who wanted to study with you or did you have to kind of think, how do I attract aspiring

567
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,840
actors or anybody into the school?

568
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:32,080
The benefit of never having gone to a business school and being an eternal optimist and being

569
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:39,920
full of youthful naivete is such that I did no competitive analysis, no understanding

570
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:41,640
of the landscape whatsoever.

571
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:47,200
I just knew I want to open a studio for actors and that's that.

572
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:55,160
And I literally just put word out there on Facebook and I said, whoever wants to come,

573
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:56,160
come on down.

574
00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:00,520
And within the first two batches, I realized, oh, here's a problem.

575
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:05,200
There don't seem to be enough professional actors in this country to sustain the school.

576
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:10,160
And I realized within the first two batches of students that while there were professional

577
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:15,600
actors or aspiring professionals, the bulk of that community were what I now term creative

578
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,360
double lifers.

579
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,160
And to your listener who doesn't know what a creative double lifer is, it's someone who

580
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,120
is in a PAP job, meaning parent approved profession.

581
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:30,160
And it's lawyers, doctors, bankers, something in tech, something in sales, something where

582
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:31,200
everyone knows what you do.

583
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,000
You pay taxes and you're a responsible citizen, but you feel dead on the inside.

584
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:40,320
And so they had come to me with the expressed desire to pick up these creative skills so

585
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,960
they could have a whole second life performing or creating work.

586
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:49,840
Or they came to me with the idea to pick up skills from the creative arts to apply in

587
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,120
the personal professional life.

588
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,720
And I was like, huh, there seems to be something here.

589
00:38:55,720 --> 00:39:02,720
How can I repackage the work that I'm doing, recontextualize it, adjust it for the cultural

590
00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:09,640
norms and expectations so that it's more accessible to people here with that demand?

591
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,760
Because clearly the professional actors didn't have a strong demand.

592
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:13,760
Right.

593
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:14,760
Right.

594
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:22,080
And making it accessible has certainly widened the scope of who you can talk to and all that.

595
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,160
Because I know you work with corporate clients as well as people who actually physically

596
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,120
come to your workshops.

597
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:32,120
And when you work with these corporate clients, I mean, what are they looking for?

598
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:36,180
Are they looking for that same creative outlet or are they looking for better presentation

599
00:39:36,180 --> 00:39:37,360
skills or?

600
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:45,000
It varies from person to person very often when it's the one-on-one C-suite client.

601
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,880
They typically are coming to me with some sort of external problem like, oh, I don't

602
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:53,920
know how to talk to my team or I'm finding that my pitching skills are not so great or

603
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:59,560
I'm now thrust in this position of leadership and I don't have the skill sets to do X, Y,

604
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:00,560
Z.

605
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:06,080
But seemingly they always start with something external and then I preface it by telling

606
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:07,800
them what we do is not therapy.

607
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,680
I will not be your therapist.

608
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:14,480
But the reality is it's almost always some sort of internal wiring thing or presupposition

609
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,340
or lack of permission that they put upon themselves that we have to unpack.

610
00:40:18,340 --> 00:40:22,280
So then we rewire the internal stuff, but we also fix the external stuff.

611
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,480
But we always do it through the lens of theater and acting.

612
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:33,760
And then within the group setting, the lowest hanging fruit for most companies tends to

613
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:38,220
be the team building thing because not everybody wants to do a cooking class or African drumming

614
00:40:38,220 --> 00:40:40,400
or a paint jam or something.

615
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:45,200
But then they are also looking for, I don't like using the term soft skills because I

616
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:51,840
think it really cheapens it, but the 21st century essential skills, creativity, compassion,

617
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,080
critical thinking, communication.

618
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:57,800
These are the things that artists have been doing since the dawn of time.

619
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:05,680
And all I do is I examine these skills through the lens of theater with skills and exercises

620
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:10,240
that make it accessible to them and palatable to them and contextualize it in a way that

621
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:14,080
they go, oh, I thought I was coming to an acting class.

622
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:19,720
Actually, what I'm really coming here for is, well, in a way, life.

623
00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:26,480
And these skills extend beyond just my nine to five, they extend into the very essence

624
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:27,480
of who I am.

625
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:28,480
Yeah.

626
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:29,480
Yeah.

627
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:36,080
It seems like it's something that's applicable to so many different people when they are

628
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:41,600
either looking for some type of creative expression or just wanting to learn to express themselves

629
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,600
more authentically to tell their story.

630
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,800
So I think that's amazing that you're able to do so much.

631
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,560
Ten thousand students is a lot, by the way.

632
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:53,960
Oh, thank you.

633
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:55,560
Is it more than any other in Singapore?

634
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:56,560
Must be.

635
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,040
Up till now, we're the only one in Singapore.

636
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:00,600
So I guess, yeah.

637
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:01,640
Very cool.

638
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:07,600
So I wanted to ask you one thing because there's one of all the nuggets that you shared when

639
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:12,840
you talk about method acting and the Huk method specifically.

640
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:17,520
There was one phrase that I now hold very close and I think about it a lot when you

641
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:24,640
said it's a lot about making choices and you said there are no right or wrong choices,

642
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,120
only boring ones.

643
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:28,120
Tell us more about that.

644
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:32,720
Here's what I'm going to do is I'm actually curious since you've been thinking about it

645
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:33,720
a lot.

646
00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:39,320
I want to know where you were with that phrase and where you are now with that phrase.

647
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:46,520
I think when when I was in the context of that workshop, when you when I think you reiterated

648
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:51,720
that point, it was me thinking, am I doing this right?

649
00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:54,040
Like I don't really know acting.

650
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:55,720
Does this look OK?

651
00:42:55,720 --> 00:42:56,720
Does this come across?

652
00:42:56,720 --> 00:42:58,520
How does this come across?

653
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:04,080
And I think in that moment, I was thinking, OK, there is no right and wrong.

654
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:10,160
It's just how the audience perceives what I am putting out there.

655
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,200
And so don't make it boring because people want to see authenticity.

656
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,880
They want to see something that's real.

657
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:21,040
But I have no control actually over how they perceive it, because that's the other part

658
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,480
of the transaction is you put something out there.

659
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:25,480
The exact same thing.

660
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,720
One person is going to respond very positively to another person will be like meh because

661
00:43:29,720 --> 00:43:31,760
it just doesn't resonate with them.

662
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,320
So in that moment, I was thinking a lot about that.

663
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:40,280
But now further down the line, like a year later, I still think about this quote because

664
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:48,160
starting my own business, I'm in kind of virgin territory again with my career.

665
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,440
And I have to keep reminding myself, am I doing things the right way?

666
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,640
Well, maybe it doesn't matter if I'm doing things the right way.

667
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,160
But don't be boring.

668
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,440
Like be authentically yourself.

669
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:03,640
If you're describing what your offer is, if you're talking to a potential client, just

670
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:05,960
go all the way there with it.

671
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:07,440
Don't be like, well, I could do this.

672
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:11,160
I might be, you know, just be like, this is what I do.

673
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:15,400
You know, you don't have to feel like an imposter because I think that's something that I've

674
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,400
kind of had a bit of in starting my own business.

675
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,320
Am I just, why are people going to pay me for this?

676
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:27,800
But I think that now that quote still resonates with me for different reasons, not specifically

677
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,320
around acting, but about the choices I make in life.

678
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,200
That's why maybe the name of your podcast.

679
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:34,200
Yes.

680
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:35,200
Influenced.

681
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,360
One of the influences.

682
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,720
Where it comes from for me is the idea that you're right.

683
00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:45,200
I mean, like one man's treasure is another man's trash.

684
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:50,320
And so, you know, art is so subjective and it really is not good or bad.

685
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,840
It's just what's appropriate or inappropriate.

686
00:44:53,840 --> 00:45:00,480
And then the mortal sin of any artist is to have the audience leave that transaction going,

687
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:01,760
eh, what's for lunch?

688
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:02,760
Right.

689
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,000
And then just bore them to death or worse still, they've literally fallen asleep in

690
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:07,440
that theater.

691
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:13,400
And so even if you do something so unapologetically you and it offends someone, at least they

692
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:14,880
have felt something.

693
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:15,880
Yeah.

694
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:16,880
Right.

695
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:22,440
And so the goal is to ensure that the audience is thinking about something and is feeling

696
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:25,840
about something and not in a way that is spoon fed to them.

697
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:30,120
Because I think also, I mean, this is a bit of a segue.

698
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,520
We're in a habit, I guess, in Singapore to spoon feed people what they're supposed to

699
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,400
think and feel.

700
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:41,400
And I think there is some merit to that, especially if you haven't had the ability to think and

701
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,560
feel for whatever safety reasons you have in your life.

702
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:50,000
However, there is as much, if not more merit in saying, you know, what do you really think

703
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:51,000
about this?

704
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:52,680
What do you really feel about this?

705
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:57,640
And it's totally okay that you have these thoughts and feelings and they're not wrong.

706
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:58,640
They're not bad.

707
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,320
They're not boring.

708
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:02,840
They're you.

709
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:07,280
And whether it's in the context of putting out something that's creative or just in your

710
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:16,160
daily life, any time someone exits a transaction with you, the hope or the intention is that

711
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:20,800
they'll want to come back again because they felt something that they had a thought that

712
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:26,560
they didn't think before or they now have the permission because you've shined a light

713
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:31,960
on something to see the same issue from a different angle, something, anything rather

714
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:32,960
than nothing.

715
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:33,960
Just don't be boring.

716
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:34,960
Boredom is death.

717
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:35,960
Yeah.

718
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:36,960
Yeah.

719
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,080
They say that, you know, people won't remember what you said.

720
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:40,640
They'll remember how you make them feel.

721
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,800
And that sounds like what you're talking about.

722
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:44,800
Absolutely.

723
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,860
So I'm going to ask you to finish a sentence.

724
00:46:48,860 --> 00:46:53,520
The world would benefit from more what?

725
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,420
In your opinion, Kamau.

726
00:46:56,420 --> 00:47:03,920
The world would benefit from more.

727
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:08,600
From more failure magic.

728
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:17,880
Failure magic is spaces and means to be able to risk, to explore, to try and not have to

729
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:24,760
suffer consequences of embarrassment, shame, disappointment because you've let someone

730
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:32,840
else down, spaces and places and means to allow yourself to have the ability to explore

731
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:38,040
the quantity that needs to come from experimentation before you find the quality, knowing that

732
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:43,640
you have the time and the space and the bandwidth and the resources to allow that quantity to

733
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:50,320
happen where people go like, good for you that you're trying the 17,000 time because

734
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:51,720
you're going to get it the next time around.

735
00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:55,240
And even if you don't, we're still going to be able to support you.

736
00:47:55,240 --> 00:48:02,560
And I think it's a disease that we have in Singapore that we don't celebrate failure.

737
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:07,160
And on the one hand, we pride ourselves on like this first world nation of innovation

738
00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:09,360
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

739
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:13,840
But all the platitudes mean nothing if on the ground level, that person doesn't even

740
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,720
feel that they can speak their own mind without being punished or they can't have a thought

741
00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:23,080
or they can't even be their actual identity or gender or whatever it may be without some

742
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,480
level of consequence.

743
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:32,640
And I think the, again, you expand the conversation beyond the creative arts and to just life.

744
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:37,800
Can we simply allow the magic of failure to happen knowing that something is going to

745
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,320
come out of it if we just have patience?

746
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:41,320
Yeah.

747
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:42,320
Yeah.

748
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,520
It's quite profound.

749
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:51,920
And you're right, it's not exclusive to the creative arts, but it seems like allowing

750
00:48:51,920 --> 00:49:01,840
children, adults, people to, like you said, fail, try again and be supported, not judged.

751
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:08,400
In Singapore, I mean, the school system here has always traditionally been around scores

752
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:12,160
and exams and everything, and that's changing.

753
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:14,680
But there are still lots of pressures here.

754
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:20,680
I mean, like I said, I've been here for 11 years now, and I would like to stay just to

755
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,320
clarify for anyone listening.

756
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:29,280
My kids go to local school here, so it is interesting as a parent of children in a Singaporean

757
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:34,640
school the difference between my education back in the US when I was growing up and the

758
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:36,600
one that's expected of them here.

759
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:44,640
Even though things have changed, I would say it's still quite merit and exam-based as well.

760
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:45,640
Yeah.

761
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:47,180
So there's a lot of pressure.

762
00:49:47,180 --> 00:49:48,920
Thank you for that.

763
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:56,440
And I will definitely link to HCAC in the podcast notes for anyone who is interested

764
00:49:56,440 --> 00:50:02,480
and in Singapore to actually participate in some of the programs or attend one of the

765
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:03,480
shows.

766
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:04,480
You also direct shows.

767
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:05,880
You have lots of projects going on.

768
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:11,200
Is there anything coming up that you have planned and you want to talk a little bit

769
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:12,200
about?

770
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:13,200
Sure.

771
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:14,200
Yeah.

772
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:19,400
I am in the middle of planning my first TEDx talk, which will happen in September.

773
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,160
Lovely.

774
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:30,120
And my goal is to be able to share more about my love for preparation and the importance

775
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:34,360
of preparation and the moment before.

776
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,240
What are we doing in the moment before and the power and the potential of the moment

777
00:50:38,240 --> 00:50:42,560
before to determine what the moment is.

778
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:44,200
That's something that's coming up.

779
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,980
And yeah, shows and workshops.

780
00:50:46,980 --> 00:50:50,680
My goal by the end of this year is to actually be back on stage.

781
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:54,560
I will be in a one-man show at the end of the year.

782
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:55,560
Lovely.

783
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:56,560
Fantastic.

784
00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:01,600
The question I always like to ask my guests at the very end is, what would you like to

785
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:03,600
be remembered for?

786
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:27,280
What I would like to be remembered for is being that person that helped turn on the

787
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:35,040
light bulb just in the same way that Robin Williams said Carpe Diem.

788
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:36,920
Beautiful.

789
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:41,240
Thank you so much, Kamil, for being with me today.

790
00:51:41,240 --> 00:51:43,280
Thank you.

791
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,080
Thank you for listening today.

792
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,340
I hope this has been a useful investment of your time.

793
00:51:48,340 --> 00:51:53,040
If you feel inspired by this episode, please rate it and consider subscribing.

794
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,200
I'm keen to know how it's impacted you.

795
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,720
Now go out there and seize those moments.