Healing the World: A Journey of Family, Support and Impact with Dr. Laurie Charlés

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So hello everyone and thank you for joining Every Moment is a Choice.

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My name is Erika Behl and this is a podcast for people who are looking to understand their

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own unique courage.

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I talk with people who have inspired me with the choices they've made in both in their

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career and in their personal lives.

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Today I am thrilled to have Dr. Laurie Charles on the podcast.

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Hi Laurie.

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Hi Erika, so great to see you.

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So great to see you too.

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So for the listeners, Laurie is one of the world's leading experts on family therapy

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and mental health in conflict zones and violence affected states.

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She has spent her career working in the fields in over a dozen countries to scale up local

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family therapy programs for those affected by war and violence.

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A few of the examples, this is not a comprehensive list of some of the projects she's done,

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but she has worked in Burundi and the Democratic Republic of Congo helping survivors of gender

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and sexual violence.

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She has supported World Health Organization efforts in Guinea during the Ebola outbreak

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of 2015.

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She has trained and supervised local psychotherapy practitioners and programs in places as diverse

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as Syria, Kosovo, Lebanon, Central African Republic, Cameroon, Libya, Sri Lanka, and

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Egypt.

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She's trained family therapy practitioners from over a dozen Asian countries on behalf

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of the United Nations.

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Laurie is also the recipient of not one, but two Fulbright Fellowship Grants.

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During one of those, she created a grassroots toolkit for family therapy practitioners in

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transitional justice and reconciliation initiatives.

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She has numerous publications and books that she has published already on international

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family therapy in reconstruction and post-conflict areas.

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And I am so delighted to say that I met Laurie way back when we were in Peace Corps together

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in Togo, West Africa, over 20 years ago.

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It feels like yesterday.

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So we will get into Laurie's career, her various experiences, and some great stories.

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But before we get to all of that, I would like to dive right in because today's post-COVID

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world, you know, all of our listeners are out there and we are talking and thinking

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about mental health so much more now than we used to be, especially pre-COVID, right?

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So we talk about mental health.

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It's a huge issue in the workplace, for leaders, in schools, even for our kids.

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And so, Laurie, I wanted to just dive right in and get your take on the situation with

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all of your expertise.

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Is that OK?

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Yeah, sure.

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Thank you.

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Thank you so much.

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What an introduction.

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That's so great to be here, Erica.

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Great to talk to you.

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You know, it's interesting for me to talk about COVID-19 because I worked in the Ebola

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virus disease outbreak.

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So I had the experience of, you know, working with contact tracers.

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I had the experience of IPC, infection prevention and control.

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I was in West Africa, but I live in the United States.

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So at that time, people may remember in the U.S., there were one or two cases and they

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made the headlines every day.

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You know, when I would return from my mission in Guinea to the U.S., I had somebody from

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the CDC waiting for me at the airport because I had come from an Ebola-affected country.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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And in the city I lived in where I was based, this is in San Antonio, the health department

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had identified me as a risk.

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So I had to report for three weeks my temperature twice a day.

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So I was not even exposed to Ebola when I was working in Guinea.

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Yeah.

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Ebola virus disease is the kind of disease that it's very obvious when you're sick or

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when someone is infected.

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And you can, when I arrived there a year into the outbreak, the social and cultural mores

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were such that people understood how to protect themselves and protect other people.

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So to watch COVID-19 unfold in such a dramatic way was really powerful for me.

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I mean, in one way I felt very prepared and my family was also very prepared because they

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had watched, you know, what I had done.

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And after my work in Guinea, I made sure my family members all had the radar thermometers

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and those came in very handy, right, later on.

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But you know, and the work that I did in Guinea was focused on reducing the stigma of Ebola

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for affected family members and also for the staff that were affected.

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So it's very analogous to COVID.

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So how COVID, the diagnosis and the illness and the death from COVID affect people around

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them.

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So this was our focus also in Guinea and particularly around like, how do we support the trust that

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needs to be there between a community and public health providers so that they, so that

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the transmission is reduced and we're addressing the whole person, you know, not just the infection,

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right, which means that, or the virus rather, needs to be addressed, but the repercussions

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of that on people's health.

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And that is also analogous to COVID.

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So for me, to watch what happened in COVID, I mean, it was really clear what needed to

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be done because we have examples of it across the globe, across other pandemics and epidemics,

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but a hard time managing the social component of how a community, you know, trusts its health

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providers or trusts governance to tell them what's happening.

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And also the shock of having to think about the way that you wash your hands and what

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you breathe, you know, it's kind of shocking off for certain countries, but in other parts

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of the globe, not so much a shock.

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For instance, in Guinea, the contact tracers were community health workers who had been

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working in the polio, polio like outbreaks.

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So it was like a ready-made cadre of people, whereas it was, you know, not like that obviously

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in the United States.

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So in Guinea, we would say that there's no health without mental health, you know, in

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French, right?

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Il n'y a pas sans tes, sans tes mentaux.

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And I think that idea has now become more, much more accepted across the globe because

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of COVID, like that we need to address mental health and all its permutations and all the

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ways that people need to be supported for their wellbeing.

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Absolutely.

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And it seems because it was such a global pandemic and even in the Western world, right?

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Ebola affected places that were for the average American, a very far away place.

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You know, Ebola was kind of something that was very remote and didn't really touch the

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U.S.

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But yeah, the global nature of COVID has really brought it to the fore.

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So in terms of global mental health today, after, you know, you have so much expertise

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on especially families and you talked about individuals and then their overall families

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and in terms of mental health, I wanted to ask you a question.

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How do you define family?

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Oh, I love that question.

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I love that question because, you know, for a few reasons, like one is that everywhere

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that I've worked and every, you know, I've worked as a, as a family therapist with, you

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know, many thousands of hours with families in the U.S. and I've trained folks who work

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with families.

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And, I mean, it's without, it's universal that family is important.

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Like there are always values about like the need to have strong families and families

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should be at the top of our list.

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And we think about what makes a strong community, right?

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But what's different is what, how people identify family and also the things that people think

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family should do and not do or how families should look and not look.

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So that's where things get, you know, a little bit less universal.

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But my stock phrase is a family, you know, it can be kin and non-blood kin.

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So blood kin and non-blood kin.

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And literally when I'm, you know, I'm a systemic family therapist.

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So if I'm working with one person or we're talking about, you know, someone who has a

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diagnosis of COVID or EVD, who are the affected people in that person's network?

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And you know, it may be direct family members in lots of parts of Africa.

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Non-blood kin is very important.

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I mean, there's not those kind of distinctions about like a sister is a direct sister from

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the same mother and father.

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So this, I think a lot of the world is like that.

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It's a very broad talking about what family is.

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So my stock official answer in a training will be like, you know, blood kin and non-blood

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kin.

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And then how does the person I'm working with define it?

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That's almost more important than what I think.

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I mean, I think family is whoever, you know, whoever we say it is.

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In terms of the person I'm talking to.

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Does that make sense?

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It makes sense.

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And I remember now from when we were in Togo together, someone would introduce their, you

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know, Togo least person would introduce their sister and they, and they would mention, oh,

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men pair men there.

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And that means same mother, same father.

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They had to clarify that this was their sister by the actual same biological parents because

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there was, there was an extended definition of sister because of, you know, husbands who

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had several wives or, or that kind of family groupings where they consider them sisters,

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but they weren't necessarily the Western definition or the American definition of sisters.

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So I remember that.

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I forgot the phrase, but I remember being confused for my, for me, you know, who, you

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know, I'm, you know, my family is, you know, historically from Latin America, right?

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So we have, I have a very large extended family, but still having been raised and socialized

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in the United States to get to, you know, Togo and struggle with, well, who's related

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to whom by whom.

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And that's not really the same question everywhere.

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It doesn't have the same resonance everywhere.

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And, you know, even in the U S now we have the phrase where it says a brother from another

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mother.

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Hello.

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I mean, it's like, yeah, the idea of family is, I don't want to say it's changing, but

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it's unique.

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It's unique across places and it should be, why not?

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And do you think, because when I think, when I originally hear the term family therapy,

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I think of the therapy that like divorced parents will attend with their children to

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get them through a divorce or if there is abuse in a household and there's some type

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of kind of intervention with family therapy, but maybe that's too narrow a definition.

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I mean, when you talk about family therapy, what does that include?

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Oh, that's such a good question.

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And I'm so glad you asked it.

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Well, so one important thing to say is that systemic family therapy is how I identify

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what I do.

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So in that, in that umbrella, a family is seen as a system, but there are right, multiple

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kinds of systems and there's all kinds of systemic theory and work in many fields.

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So that is the influence on the kind of, on family therapy in the way that I was trained

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and many people are trained.

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So that means any, anything that a person is experiencing that seems to be a threat

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or a challenge to their psychosocial wellbeing is up for grabs in terms of like, what can

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we do in terms of a support or intervention?

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But you're right.

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I mean, I think traditionally there's this idea that that's the only time we talk to

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a family is when there's a divorce or when there's abuse or, you know, and it's not that

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we, that's not important to do, it's important to do.

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But quite frankly, the research shows that individuals do better in therapy when people

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in their family are involved in one way or another, because we don't experience challenges

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or like mental health problems or experiences in a vacuum.

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Someone else is always involved.

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Yeah.

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Someone else is always involved.

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So a systemic approach is looking at, well, how do we incorporate whether it doesn't have

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to be physically bring that person in the place, but like incorporate them in the conversation,

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in the dialogue so that the individual I'm working with has a reduced anxiety or reduced

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stress, whatever it might be.

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So it's definitely broader, like you said, and it's not, it really can't be, I mean,

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divorce is not a problem everywhere in the same way, just like, you know, mem-mem-mem-pere,

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you know, so the way families are constructed is different.

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And I like to think, you know, that in the kind of work I do that we're adaptable to

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whatever people bring in.

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So clients who have issues with work, colleagues, that's a big challenge.

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Or, you know, with the pandemic talking, you know, clients who have challenges talking

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to their health providers, particularly people with like diabetes, chronic illness.

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And you know, I work in a community that has a large Cambodian population, so lots of survivors

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of the genocide in Cambodia.

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And you know, this is a very interesting type of work also.

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I mean, we're promoting the health of an individual means working with the family around access

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to care with their health providers and building trust and also practical things that can reduce

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like their A1C, but also, you know, with the human component.

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And that's so important, like, so it's very holistic and it's a long answer to your question.

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But I'm glad you asked it because that is, I think that's not a myth, but it's like,

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I'm not, it's an incomplete understanding.

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Yeah, and I love your answer and your explanation around systemic family therapy and how we

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don't experience things, especially extreme traumatic things in isolation.

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It's always as part of a whatever our grouping is, you know, whether it's our blood relatives,

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whether it's our chosen family, who we who we tend to rely on for support.

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And I think from all your experience working with people in kind of extreme situations,

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I mean, you've you've been involved in some pretty important conflicts, you know, post

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conflict areas and everything where where there's probably a lot of trauma or maybe

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I'm using the wrong term, but there seems to have a lot of extreme pressures on people.

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And I want to I want to actually get your take on trauma.

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There's a lot of talk and then other buzzword that I hear a lot is trauma.

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And so I want to kind of get your take on that.

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Has the whole covid experience like a traumatic event for us as a people or wow, that's also

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a good question.

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I was talking with a colleague the other day and you know that that's that she talked with

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me about how she and her co-workers in a training program, a graduate training program are are

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also discussing like, you know, is everybody traumatized and what does that mean when there's

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trauma and you know, everybody has trauma.

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Does that what is trauma then?

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I do have the interesting experience, though, of working with people in places where I mean,

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one thing that stands out is violence that people have witnessed directly, especially

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my or violence that people have been forced to become a part of with their loved ones.

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So this is a this is one distinction that I mean, of course, violence occurs everywhere

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in different kinds of ways.

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But one of the early distinctions I used to make was like, was it something that the person

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witnessed or experienced directly?

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I mean, that's that's interesting because for two reasons for me.

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So I rely a lot on also Judith Herman's work.

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She wrote a great book about trauma.

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She's like, you know, one of the original scholars.

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And she she does a lovely job in her book about talking about how a traumatic incident

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can instill this feeling of helplessness that can linger for people and that the antidote

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to that is is in a way is activism.

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And so she names like the Vietnam veterans movement and women's movement.

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The second thing that I attached to that is like, what was the person's it's not like

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in spatial time, their closeness to the traumatic incident, because that also became fluid in

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covid.

246
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It's like, well, were we all on the front line?

247
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You know, one of my colleagues and I asked, we were all I mean, in a way, yes.

248
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I mean, what is the number of deaths from covid?

249
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And people still die from covid every day.

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And death is traumatic.

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Death is traumatic.

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So to answer your question, I do think there is an element of like a kind of post traumatic

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stress that has blanketed the globe.

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And then I think we do I mean, in ways that we don't quite understand yet, we can't fully

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see it, except that, you know, I think the data will show in a few years how health people's

256
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health outcomes are like today.

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And I know that lots of clients I work with now, the stressors they have around them,

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housing and inflation and food insecurity and like not necessarily violence, but conflict

259
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in their homes have direct and indirect effects to covid.

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I mean, and it's striking to me, of course, it's going to be like that.

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Ebola continued, you know, that there is a vaccine now for Ebola.

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The outbreak was contained.

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More recent outbreaks have been contained.

264
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But how can we don't assume that there's no effects after that?

265
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There are.

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And how can covid not be?

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I mean, covid, of course, of course.

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So I think there's a lot of positive outcomes that can come from dealing with extreme adversity.

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And I would say covid has brought extreme adversity to many households.

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And so in those families and in those households, we have a lot to discover about how how families

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adapted to adversity in ways that they didn't know they could.

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And that, of course, that happens.

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You know, and this is something I've seen.

274
00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:23,800
You know, this week is like a 10 year anniversary of my first time working with Syrians since

275
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the war in Syria.

276
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It's been 10 years.

277
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Yeah.

278
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And and to watch them still do such amazing work.

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I mean, how it's overcoming, you know, yes, there's an incredible, incredible traumatic

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incidents.

281
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But there's also I don't want to say resilience because it's another catchword, but there's

282
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also something else that happens.

283
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,560
There's something else that can happen when people overcome that or continue to move forward

284
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in spite of that.

285
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,000
Yeah.

286
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,400
So that, you know, that's important to say.

287
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,000
So are we all traumatized?

288
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,000
Yes.

289
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Are we all here to to find out how we can overcome trauma?

290
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:05,040
Yeah.

291
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:10,000
So I'm fascinated by the kind of insight that you're bringing that there's there's kind

292
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of a ripple effect.

293
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:17,200
Like you're saying there's the immediate kind of repercussions of events or violence or

294
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war or covid.

295
00:20:19,580 --> 00:20:25,960
But then even years down the line, there may be after effects, kind of ripple effects as

296
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:30,520
it moves through people's lives, how they deal with it and everything.

297
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,880
I think that's so key because what we're dealing with in twenty twenty three, you know, we

298
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:40,600
might still be dealing with some type of variation of post covid in twenty twenty five, twenty

299
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twenty seven, several years down the road.

300
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,320
That's so interesting.

301
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:51,120
But you you sound hopeful in that there is like you talk about Syria in ten years on

302
00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:58,760
call it resilience, call it some type of ability to move through these things that I think

303
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,120
is so so amazing.

304
00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:09,720
And if you've learned one thing from one positive, hopeful thing from all of your experiences,

305
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:11,840
is it around that that resilience?

306
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:12,840
Is it something else?

307
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,400
What would you say you've you've taken away?

308
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,360
Well, that's a big one.

309
00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:18,920
I mean, that's a big one.

310
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:25,120
I mean, it's shocking to me to think that it has been ten years and that the kind of

311
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:31,720
work I do, I mean, it often involves a face to face component with people in their home

312
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,720
country or in a nearby country where they're from.

313
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:43,960
And then the rest of the the post of that experience is virtual through meetings online

314
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,720
or or texting through encrypted.

315
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,080
You know, just it's it's continued contact.

316
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:50,520
And we're at ten years now.

317
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,280
And Syria is not the only place that has happened.

318
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:55,800
I worked for many years in Kosovo.

319
00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:00,160
I'm still close colleagues with these people that I met there many in 1990.

320
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,080
I mean, a long time ago, 2009.

321
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:03,080
Pardon me.

322
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:04,080
Yeah.

323
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,720
And it's something very it's not just that they they move through it because and they

324
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:15,800
do, but like they move through it with like like power and and like creativity and like

325
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:21,400
they make the kind of family therapy I do seem outdated.

326
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,600
I mean, they like create new stuff.

327
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:32,920
And that is boy that so like one thing that sticks lately is like the future for me, the

328
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:39,200
future of our field is going to look I mean, because I've got this view from what I've

329
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:46,400
seen across low and middle income countries and countries that are not part of the global

330
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:47,400
north.

331
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:48,400
Right.

332
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:53,520
They they create create something different with the same ideas.

333
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:54,760
And that's really inspiring.

334
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,560
I mean, it keeps me curious.

335
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:02,900
And in a way, it's like I say like every every new family I work with or every client I work

336
00:23:02,900 --> 00:23:09,160
with, it's like the first client, even though I have all these years and years of experience,

337
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:10,960
it's always new.

338
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:18,840
So it's something like that has happened with with the work that former trainees of mine

339
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:25,120
and conflict states have created in their context, which I do not live in where I do

340
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:26,120
not speak the language.

341
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:30,040
So of course, it's going to be different, but like to to hear what they're doing and

342
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,080
to see see some of their things online.

343
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:34,720
It's like, wow.

344
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,960
It's like, yeah, I feel like I know a little bit more.

345
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,920
But even if I didn't know anything, it would blow my mind what they're doing.

346
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,360
Yeah, yeah.

347
00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:49,360
And that's so hopeful to me.

348
00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:57,240
Something that that reminds me of that that concept of people working in the community,

349
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:05,000
taking the knowledge, applying it to their situation in a way that is relevant, local,

350
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:10,920
culturally appropriate and everything sounds exactly what almost development work should

351
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:11,920
be.

352
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:16,920
And it takes me back to Peace Corps because you and I were both Peace Corps volunteers.

353
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,240
And I don't want to upset any Peace Corps people.

354
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:27,720
But looking back on it, it looks more like a program to develop young Americans with

355
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:35,640
a wider world view, to develop leadership skills rather than to actually impact communities.

356
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:36,640
Right.

357
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,880
And and you come in as a most Peace Corps volunteers are quite young.

358
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:47,040
We were in our 20s and everything going out there having fun and doing quote unquote development

359
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,080
work or projects and everything.

360
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:58,600
And I think what you're saying is kind of like the more impactful version where it's

361
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:04,480
not it's not Laurie Charles, Dr. Laurie Charles, who has created all this impact in Kosovo.

362
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,600
It's the people that you've trained who are doing it.

363
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,040
And they're still doing it.

364
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:11,040
Right.

365
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,280
Now, so many years later, that's still impacting.

366
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,960
And that seems like appropriate type of development work.

367
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,240
Yeah, yeah.

368
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:21,240
The longevity.

369
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:29,040
And I mean, you we have this saying and you know, that's in therapy or in family therapy.

370
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,280
I mean, you you kind of your goal is to kind of get fired.

371
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,240
Your goal is to not be necessary anymore.

372
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,980
Yeah, I don't really you know, it's not like you want the family to fire you, but you want

373
00:25:37,980 --> 00:25:40,080
you don't want to be needed.

374
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,320
I mean, the goal is that that's how I was trained and I believe that.

375
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,720
And I think it's very similar in international work.

376
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,280
I don't want to be needed.

377
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:53,160
And I don't you know, I what's interesting to you is lots of groups I work with because

378
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,640
they're they're they might be new.

379
00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:00,520
You know, at some point they're new to the content of what it means to work with families.

380
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:05,480
It's hard for them to see a period where they're they don't you know, where they're doing it

381
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:06,760
on their own.

382
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,000
But it always comes.

383
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,000
It always comes.

384
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:14,480
I mean, I love in Kosovo, like the last visit, my last full fright was the last time I was

385
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:15,480
there.

386
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,760
And, you know, I'm like, I'm going to like the clinics that people have opened up.

387
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,760
They've opened up family therapy clinics, you know, and one of them, she they did a

388
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,800
conference, a conference on trauma and war.

389
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,760
And it was the first time they heard that they'd had a conference in Pristina on that.

390
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,720
And I don't know, hundreds and hundreds of people came.

391
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,240
So this is like, wow.

392
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:38,960
Yeah, it's exactly how it should be.

393
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,760
It's just roll right forward.

394
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,440
And then I need to I mean, it's easy to take a step back.

395
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,760
I mean, literally, I'm not in the place.

396
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,000
So like, I'm not there.

397
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,000
Yeah.

398
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,680
But I think that is harder.

399
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:58,120
This idea of development, like we don't know what to do necessarily after.

400
00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:01,480
Like what how do we follow something in this case?

401
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:06,320
For me, I mean, the relationships that develop, that's what sustained it.

402
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:12,440
The relationships I have with my colleagues in Sri Lanka and Kosovo and Syria, our lives

403
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:13,440
have changed over.

404
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,520
I mean, their lives change, but mine does, too.

405
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,640
You know, their country situation changes and mine does, too.

406
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,320
But it's powerful to me how some things remain the same.

407
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:31,840
So like the need to support families in their in their settings where they live in spite

408
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:36,180
of the dynamic changes happening, that stays the same.

409
00:27:36,180 --> 00:27:37,960
So that's fascinating for me to watch.

410
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,400
Like, oh, how did they support people?

411
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,800
They had they had the war, they had covid and then they had the earthquake.

412
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:45,800
Yeah.

413
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,640
So like, yeah.

414
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:52,680
And you know, that that that brings me like, you know, it makes me stand on my toes, which

415
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,960
is good, is good, because I've been you know, I've been doing this work a long time.

416
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:01,600
So anything I can do that keeps me fresh and keeps me on my toes is like a good thing.

417
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,360
Yeah, definitely.

418
00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:09,960
Well, how I mean, how empowering is that message, you know, that you see the fruits of what

419
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:15,960
you've done live on and just blossom in the local communities?

420
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:16,960
That's so awesome.

421
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:17,960
I love that.

422
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,660
And you mentioned I want to I want to hear a little bit more about your own story and

423
00:28:22,660 --> 00:28:28,440
how how you got into this line of work, because when I met you, it was in Peace Corps.

424
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:33,880
And at that time, you had already done your doctorate and you had fresh, freshly finished

425
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,960
your dissertation, I think when you left for Peace Corps in family therapy.

426
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,280
So what led you to family therapy in the first place?

427
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:47,480
Well, I I realized pretty quickly after I got my degree, I got like, you know, a liberal

428
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:52,280
arts degree in psychology that like, you know, I couldn't do much with it.

429
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:53,760
Like I needed more.

430
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,240
I needed something else.

431
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:57,240
And back to relationships.

432
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:03,040
Right. I was introduced to the faculty in the program I went to, our Lady Lake University

433
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:04,640
in San Antonio.

434
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,680
And you know, they hooked me.

435
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,160
They hooked me in the way they talked about families.

436
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,400
And then, you know, I had my first class.

437
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:17,000
I still remember the role play that my professor did at the time and the power of like how

438
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,000
that affected me.

439
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,600
And, you know, I was hooked.

440
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,920
I worked throughout my graduate degree, my first one.

441
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,360
So I spent like six years doing that master's degree.

442
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,000
So I was like really immersed and I still didn't feel finished.

443
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,400
So I went on and got my doctorate.

444
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:30,600
But I don't know.

445
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:38,440
I think something about the curiosity of of making like change happening in the family

446
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,520
was really powerful and still is.

447
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,920
And I don't know that I thought more broadly than that.

448
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:50,520
And I certainly didn't know that I would end up doing what I was what I'm doing now.

449
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:57,400
You know, my advisor at the time, my advisor in undergrad talked with me and I remember

450
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,560
her telling me, oh, you're going to be in the Foreign Service someday.

451
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,840
And of course, I'm not in the Foreign Service, but she had a she she was on to something,

452
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:11,040
you know, like this interest in the world and being curious about the world and wanting

453
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,080
to be engaged in the world.

454
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:14,760
You know, that has stayed steady.

455
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,240
And Peace Corps was part of that.

456
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:22,360
I had actually I had postponed going into the Peace Corps 10 years or something earlier,

457
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,240
five to 10 years earlier because of the finishing my degree.

458
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,200
So I was also on a I'm like, I need to do it now or I'm never going to do it.

459
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,640
Yeah, because I was expected to join the Academy and become a professor.

460
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:34,640
Yeah.

461
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,400
And, you know, my advisors were a little bit one of them was kind of horrified.

462
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,400
How can you do a Peace Corps?

463
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,400
Of course, he's Canadian.

464
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,000
So I always like, well, I don't know that you don't know that.

465
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:54,280
So this is about but that was part of it is like I need a break from I need a break.

466
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:59,380
And I had studied French in school, but I couldn't speak it fluently.

467
00:30:59,380 --> 00:31:03,680
So that was I'm like, let me do a Frank or someplace where I and I wanted to be someplace

468
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:10,000
where I didn't know anything or I had to like, I don't know, really like grow in all kinds

469
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,680
of different ways.

470
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:12,680
And that happens.

471
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:13,680
It definitely happened.

472
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:14,680
Yeah.

473
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,840
So actually, when I talk about Peace Corps, I always tell people it's funny that you mentioned

474
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:24,600
this earlier, that I always tell people, well, I was like 10 years older than all my my cohort

475
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:25,600
in Peace Corps.

476
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,880
And I that somehow like I loved it.

477
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:32,480
I loved I mean, I loved the contrast of people's experiences.

478
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:37,000
And I really loved the the program that that we were a part of.

479
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:41,200
You know, that was still has stuck with me, you know, working with young women and that,

480
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,600
you know, member Hillary Clinton used to talk about her speech in Beijing.

481
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,400
I thought that it informed what we did.

482
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,400
And it's still so relevant.

483
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:49,400
Yeah.

484
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:56,000
You know, I think that this is just like the work I'm doing today is a long line of that.

485
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:02,440
One thing I'd add that is interesting in hindsight now, you know, I work a lot in conflict affected

486
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:11,280
spaces where there's ongoing combat or a history of conflict, separatist conflict or low intensity

487
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:18,680
conflict, all kinds of ways right that that there can be like violence between state actors

488
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,320
and non state actors.

489
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:25,040
My dissertation was on a crisis negotiation.

490
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:32,520
I studied it actually happened to be a school shooting before school shootings were so common.

491
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:37,360
But it was a large scale critical incident.

492
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:42,080
I studied how it was resolved peacefully.

493
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:47,040
And it's interesting to think now about what I do, because I also have worked as a crisis

494
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:51,040
clinician, like as in crisis settings.

495
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,560
So I mean, I think sometimes like I'm doing the same thing, but it's like large, just

496
00:32:55,560 --> 00:33:00,320
a larger scale, you know, or training people who work in crisis settings.

497
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:05,200
We don't call them crisis settings, but but the idea of like there's extreme adversity

498
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:06,920
happening in real time.

499
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,440
So how do we support people?

500
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,480
So that's, you know, I didn't catch that till about five years.

501
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,720
And I'm like, oh, you know, because my dissertation, it was kind of unusual to do something like

502
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,080
that as a family therapist.

503
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,200
But, you know, I was interested in how the crisis was resolved.

504
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,840
I mean, to me, that's very simple.

505
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,840
And I learned a lot.

506
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:27,840
Yeah.

507
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:32,720
And it seems particularly relevant now in hindsight and the type of situations and,

508
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:38,080
kind of, environments that you've practiced your family therapy and family therapy training

509
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,080
for host country nationals in those type of areas.

510
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,800
So so yeah, it's funny you bring it up because I remember.

511
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:50,160
So for our listeners, the program that Lori and I were in in Peace Corps in Togo was called

512
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,640
Girls Education and Empowerment.

513
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,320
And it was a relatively new program.

514
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,760
I think we were the first batch.

515
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:04,420
Back in 1999 in Togo, and it was it was kind of a broad program.

516
00:34:04,420 --> 00:34:06,800
So we had lots of different activities within that.

517
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:14,000
But it was looking at the inequity, the way that girls, especially school age going girls

518
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:21,000
in these countries, were often dropping out of school, ways to intervene, ways to kind

519
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:26,520
of build up their confidence to work with the community to, I mean, essentially try

520
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:32,600
to keep the girls in school, but also to work with women, women's empowerment as well.

521
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,060
So it was a very interesting program.

522
00:34:35,060 --> 00:34:40,500
And I think that now I'm not sure it still exists or whether it's kind of been incorporated

523
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:45,640
in lots of the other programs in terms of gender equity.

524
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:46,640
So interesting.

525
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:51,760
So you did Peace Corps, you finished your your doctor and family therapy, you went to

526
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,920
Peace Corps.

527
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:59,240
Did Peace Corps kind of evolve your thinking on, OK, now I want to go lots of places and

528
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:05,660
do this and now I want to study more because then you went on to get another degree later,

529
00:35:05,660 --> 00:35:06,660
you know, in your career.

530
00:35:06,660 --> 00:35:08,720
Like, how did it evolve post Peace Corps?

531
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:11,240
Did you did you think you're going to stay?

532
00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:12,240
Well, that's it.

533
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:13,240
That is it.

534
00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:17,200
There is a good story there, too.

535
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:23,760
I mean, the short answer is no, I didn't think I didn't think beyond.

536
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:25,040
You know, I don't know.

537
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,880
I had a realization to like, oh, I came back, you know, I need to I just got my PhD and,

538
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,680
you know, I need to get I need to get a teaching job.

539
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:37,480
And you know, I spent a lot of years becoming and I, you know, I think to in hindsight,

540
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:42,960
that's really important that I did that, like becoming sort of credentialed and established

541
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:47,760
as a scholar and a teacher.

542
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,760
And I focused on that for the next decade.

543
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:56,360
But the second year, the first year, rather a post Peace Corps.

544
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,520
So we finished like 2001.

545
00:35:58,520 --> 00:35:59,520
Yeah.

546
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:07,720
I in 2002, I was working as a faculty in a state in the in the U.N. South.

547
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:12,880
And I was so frustrated being land bound in the United States.

548
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,600
I was really frustrated and I was desperate, actually.

549
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,860
And I wrote I told the story just a few times.

550
00:36:18,860 --> 00:36:25,480
But I wrote, you know, an email, a cold call version of an email to a senior scholar in

551
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:34,200
our field whose article I had read about his work teaching family therapy in Indonesia.

552
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,360
And that article really had an effect on me.

553
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:38,360
And I was so desperate.

554
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:39,360
I got his email.

555
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,320
I wrote him and I'm like, can I go to Indonesia?

556
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:42,480
I just flat out asked him.

557
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,120
Now he wasn't even from Indonesia.

558
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:53,360
I was, but I asked him for help and I ended up, you know, he I ended up going to the Philippines

559
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,640
the first time that summer.

560
00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:01,640
So there was something that happened post Peace Corps that like I couldn't like shut

561
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:09,920
off like, you know, the impulse to like be placed in an area where I was new or didn't

562
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,600
know didn't know everything and had to learn new things.

563
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,080
And what had changed was I had the teaching experience.

564
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:21,560
So I went to Manila and I taught I taught for like three months at Del Sal and Manila

565
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,560
and Fred, Fred, Pierce, the person I had written, he's a good friend.

566
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,480
Now we wrote an article about that afterward.

567
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,160
He I mean, he didn't know me, but he still helped me.

568
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:34,760
He wrote people and he said in the email, I don't know her.

569
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,520
But I thought was so honest.

570
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,520
I really respect that he did that because now of course, I'm in the position where people

571
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,800
ask me that stuff.

572
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:44,800
Yeah.

573
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:49,000
So, you know, and I went to Manila again, I served on a board there.

574
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,320
But the year I think you're you know, you're right.

575
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,280
I haven't thought of it about that way before.

576
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,400
I mean, I stayed on this traditional path that I needed to do in my field that had been

577
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:58,400
laid out for me.

578
00:37:58,400 --> 00:37:59,400
Right.

579
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:05,120
But then I was like, I have to I have to keep this other thread going.

580
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:06,120
So I went to Manila.

581
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:13,080
I went to a few years after that, I went to my first francophone country to work as a

582
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:14,560
consultant.

583
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,560
And then I learned that and someone actually told me, you know, when we see that you've

584
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:24,320
been in Peace Corps, we can see that you can parachute parachute into a place and especially

585
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:31,280
a low resource setting where you know, I mean, and you and you learn French, you know, that

586
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,400
that was like a big and I didn't expect that was a big draw.

587
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:41,200
So I felt like, wow, really, like, you know, lucky that I had that experience in Peace

588
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:42,200
Corps.

589
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:43,200
I didn't expect that.

590
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:44,200
Yeah.

591
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:50,000
And how important is it to reach out to people, you know, because you never know.

592
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:54,640
I've reached out to people thinking they're never going to write me back.

593
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,080
You know, they're too famous.

594
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,560
They're too important in their field.

595
00:38:58,560 --> 00:38:59,560
They're never going to write back.

596
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,040
Sometimes they write you back.

597
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,040
Sometimes they help you out.

598
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:04,040
Right.

599
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:05,040
Yes.

600
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:06,040
I agree.

601
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:12,000
And he's he's like he was a role model for a long time in that way for me, where, you

602
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:18,000
know, I just being available, being available and accessible, especially, I think, sometimes

603
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:23,200
the kind of work that I do or this kind of work, it can seem very inaccessible.

604
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,400
Like, who knows what's going on in Syria?

605
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,240
Like, how would you learn that?

606
00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:29,560
And you know, this or or Kosovo.

607
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:34,240
I mean, and I bet is also I feel like I have not exactly.

608
00:39:34,240 --> 00:39:37,240
I mean, kind of a responsibility like I need to speak to that.

609
00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:38,720
Like I don't want it to just be a one off.

610
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:41,000
I want to I want to I want people to know.

611
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:46,800
So I'll anyone who writes me an email, especially if it's someone I know that has referred them

612
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,120
to me, I'll I'll respond.

613
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,240
You know, and that's easy to do to talk to people.

614
00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:53,240
It's easy to do.

615
00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:54,240
So yeah.

616
00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:55,720
And so important.

617
00:39:55,720 --> 00:40:02,400
So you you said you had you still had that kind of itch to scratch with international

618
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,360
settings and everything.

619
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:09,920
What prompted you to go on and you got another degree in international relations a few years

620
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:10,920
after that?

621
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:11,920
Yes.

622
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:12,920
What what prompted that?

623
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,600
Oh, yeah, I forgot about that last one.

624
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:16,600
Like I have.

625
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:22,160
I know, by the way, it has been 10 years just like accidentally.

626
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:31,680
But I was really frustrated in a professional like situation in a region of Africa where

627
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,000
I had I applied to the program.

628
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,800
I had applied to the program at Fletcher where for mid career professionals.

629
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,480
And but I put it on.

630
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:42,480
I deferred it.

631
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,400
You know, I was working as an academic in the field of family therapy.

632
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,880
And I just thought, oh, this might be interesting.

633
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:49,880
I went to visit it.

634
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,320
And, you know, so I applied, was accepted.

635
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,520
But I didn't go right away.

636
00:40:54,520 --> 00:41:02,760
And that changed after I had an experience on a consultancy job where multiple countries

637
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:09,600
were involved and there was exploitation happening on the ground with the group I was working

638
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:10,600
with.

639
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:15,760
There wasn't any type of communication or coordination between the multiple countries

640
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:17,320
that were involved.

641
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:24,480
The funding streams seem to be influencing the corruption that was happening and happening.

642
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:31,280
And that that experience, I remember having lunch with my husband and he was with me and

643
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:32,280
we like it's time.

644
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:37,000
It's time to go to Fletcher because I knew what was happening, but I didn't know what

645
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:38,000
to do.

646
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,680
And that was I'm like, I don't know what to do.

647
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,240
And it wasn't enough for me.

648
00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:49,720
I mean, the family therapy background wasn't enough to manage this kind of complexity.

649
00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:53,320
And that and I started Fletcher like three months later.

650
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:54,480
Yeah.

651
00:41:54,480 --> 00:42:02,280
And that made I mean, it made a huge difference for me in my, you know, the scope of knowledge,

652
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:03,280
certainly.

653
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:10,520
But understanding how the international system works and and how it doesn't work.

654
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:15,880
You know, you know, what I was doing seemed so interesting and wonderful.

655
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:20,920
But I remember being very curious why I could do something, you know, in one country and

656
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:22,400
it was only for two weeks.

657
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,040
And yet another country, I could be there for three months.

658
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:30,760
You know, how did that get decided and why did that matter that it was different and

659
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,960
why couldn't it be the opposite?

660
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,840
You know, so and I didn't know how to answer those questions.

661
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:37,080
Now I can answer those questions.

662
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,800
So that was important to me, like to understand it.

663
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:48,040
And I don't I mean, I don't I didn't necessarily get I mean, the way I approach the work changed

664
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:49,040
after that.

665
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:55,800
It's not like I necessarily got more work, but the way I approached it changed.

666
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:56,800
How did it change?

667
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:57,800
How did it?

668
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:58,800
How did it?

669
00:42:58,800 --> 00:42:59,800
I got more.

670
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:07,400
I got a lot more selective about how I chose what I did.

671
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:13,760
And I got a lot more focused on like I knew I knew to pay attention, especially for, you

672
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,960
know, projects where there's international funders and there always are international

673
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:18,960
funders.

674
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:24,120
And there's these multilateral projects with multiple organizations involved in countries.

675
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:25,280
And that's important.

676
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:26,720
And everyone has a role to play.

677
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:32,320
But for me, having a good understanding of who was in the community on the ground, like

678
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:33,680
who was actually doing it?

679
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:34,680
Who was it?

680
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:35,680
Yeah.

681
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,240
Now, now, now I the work I do.

682
00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:42,400
And also, it's like post covid, I don't have the luxury to be on the ground to meet those

683
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:43,400
people.

684
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:49,240
So but I want to understand like what that looks like.

685
00:43:49,240 --> 00:43:55,000
And I in my work as a family therapist, because the other thing I've noticed is that everybody

686
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:59,600
wants to be able to say they support families, but not everybody knows how to do it.

687
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:00,600
Yeah.

688
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:05,520
Or they do it in ways that are not helpful or not evidence based.

689
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:06,520
Right.

690
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:11,000
So this is a real risk in our work is people really want to support families and organizations

691
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:15,720
really want to say they're doing it and it's an important it's an important declaration

692
00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:16,720
to make.

693
00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:20,640
So but so I want to see what's behind that.

694
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,560
Like is there support and what is the support?

695
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,880
Is it beyond the financial support?

696
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,680
Like are they committed to the sustainability?

697
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:29,680
Right.

698
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,440
I learned the definition of sustainability at Fletcher.

699
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,280
And like I always quote that when I write about a project being sustainable, like they

700
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,160
need to be able to do the work without me.

701
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,680
Am I doing it in a way that they can do it without me?

702
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:50,680
And so I just I think I approached it in a more, you know, in a less romantic way, quite

703
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,440
frankly, less romanticized.

704
00:44:53,440 --> 00:45:00,840
I was about to say that because I think for people who are not directly involved in things

705
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:06,320
like development work, it can seem to be kind of almost altruistic.

706
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:12,400
Like we're donating, we're helping, we're doing all kinds of great things for people

707
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:13,400
who need us.

708
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,700
You know, and Peace Corps is just one kind of agency that does that.

709
00:45:17,700 --> 00:45:23,440
But there's so many multilateral agencies who are involved all around the world.

710
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:28,500
And you you quickly see, you know, there's agendas behind things.

711
00:45:28,500 --> 00:45:33,400
Sometimes there's motivations behind decisions or funding decisions and all that kind of

712
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:34,400
stuff.

713
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:39,480
But it is kind of, you know, it is kind of a bit of a slap in the face, almost like a

714
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,600
bit of a shock for some people to realize that there's corruption, there's politics

715
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:44,600
going on.

716
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,600
Yeah, there's salary.

717
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,040
Even in even in these organizations, right?

718
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:56,920
So you definitely learn to be more selective and understand the context of how you're working

719
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:58,400
is what I'm hearing.

720
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,400
Yeah, definitely.

721
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:06,240
And you know, I went through a phase, especially with certain countries where I would return

722
00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:11,680
and, you know, the people who called me brave versus the people that didn't like that, I

723
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,560
bet doesn't fit, fit, fit well for me at all.

724
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:15,560
I'm not brave.

725
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,840
I mean, I these are this is work.

726
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,440
I get paid their jobs.

727
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:24,880
They're just like any job in the that, you know, anyone else might do.

728
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:30,120
Like you said, that where there can be a risk that you have to manage, there's corruption

729
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:31,960
that you have to mitigate.

730
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:36,200
There's there's people who have strengths and people who are have less strengths in

731
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,640
the area that, you know, it's just like any other place.

732
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:47,280
But something about the passport or the border or the language where it quickly becomes exoticized

733
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,280
or politicized.

734
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:55,320
And I talk about this a lot with some of my colleagues because it's it's frustrating.

735
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:56,320
It's frustrating.

736
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,720
But, you know, I don't let it get to me.

737
00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:00,440
OK, that's that's one audience.

738
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:01,920
Like, you know, I live outside.

739
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:02,920
I live in Massachusetts.

740
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:03,920
I'm on the East Coast.

741
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:08,360
And like, I often think like, here's my audience here and then my audience, the rest of the

742
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:09,360
world.

743
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:10,360
Yeah.

744
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,360
You know, look at, you know, the Janus face, right.

745
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:13,360
And international.

746
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:14,360
Yeah.

747
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:15,360
So can I look both ways?

748
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:16,360
That's OK.

749
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,840
And and gosh, the Fletcher degree.

750
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:20,480
Yeah, it was really helpful.

751
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,400
The coursework was so helpful.

752
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,920
The sensibility I developed was helpful.

753
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:32,800
And again, like Peace Corps, boy, the friendships I made because their work, the cohort was

754
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:34,720
already doing international work.

755
00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:41,120
They're mid-career professionals and intelligence and diplomacy and finance.

756
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:46,320
They had an in-depth understanding that I have drawn on again and again since then.

757
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:47,320
Yeah.

758
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:55,040
And the work that I do that has very, you know, the complexities of doing multilateral

759
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,720
consultancy work in family therapy, which is like a knowledge transfer.

760
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:02,040
I mean, these are so important to have that network.

761
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:03,200
I'm sure you have it.

762
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:04,200
You have it too.

763
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:05,200
Right.

764
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:11,300
I think it's what sustains you sometimes, especially when you if you face rejection,

765
00:48:11,300 --> 00:48:16,400
if you all of a sudden lose your funding for something because of circumstances completely

766
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:21,920
outside your control, if you lose a job, you know, for things outside your control, who

767
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:23,720
you who do you go to?

768
00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:24,720
Yeah.

769
00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:28,520
Those those friendships in that network really sustain you almost like a family.

770
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,400
Yeah, very much so.

771
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:33,400
Yeah.

772
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:42,120
So, you know, in terms of we talked about some of the kind of things you've realized

773
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:48,680
along the way, you know, what what motivates you to stay the course, to continue this type

774
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:49,680
of work?

775
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:50,960
I mean, it must be difficult.

776
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:52,760
It must be mentally.

777
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:54,500
I'm just guessing here.

778
00:48:54,500 --> 00:48:59,660
If I was dealing doing this type of work, I think I would be mentally exhausted sometimes.

779
00:48:59,660 --> 00:49:04,520
How do you, you know, replenish your own stores of energy?

780
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:07,900
I mean, it's changed over the years.

781
00:49:07,900 --> 00:49:13,380
There was one period where I mean, I really love to run, I don't run as much anymore because

782
00:49:13,380 --> 00:49:16,680
I had had an injury a while back.

783
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:18,880
So I'm still trying to get back up to it.

784
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:25,560
But like running and one project, I like doubled my my runtime, which was like, you know,

785
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,680
I wasn't running that much, but my double time was like nine miles.

786
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:32,120
Like I watched a whole movie if I was indoors, a whole movie.

787
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:33,120
We're all running.

788
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:34,120
Wow.

789
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:35,120
Now I know.

790
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:36,660
Now I'm like, that was crazy.

791
00:49:36,660 --> 00:49:43,160
But that's what I, you know, that's what happened to me for me to like, you know, manage that

792
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:44,600
particular project.

793
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:51,200
I used to get massages once in a while, but during that project, I did it every week.

794
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,600
And that, you know, it was like not even to just do better.

795
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:57,800
It was just to stay normal, actually.

796
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,120
Now I, it doesn't have to be as intense.

797
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:05,120
And I've noticed like the, if the work is intense, like the efforts to balance need

798
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,520
to be also to match it.

799
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:09,760
Like I need to match it in proportion.

800
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,000
So exercise, obviously.

801
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,600
But I, you know, I get bored easily.

802
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:20,200
So like if, and now I live on these coasts and like, I can't always run outdoors.

803
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:21,760
I sprained my ankles.

804
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:23,720
I'm like, oh, now what am I going to do?

805
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:29,280
So like any other, I'm always looking for something new, like a physical activity.

806
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:35,640
I also try to do something intellectual that's not in the work I'm doing because I don't

807
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:37,800
know something about it occupying my brain.

808
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:42,320
So like I've been learning Arabic for like also like five or six years.

809
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:49,680
So there's something about the also like the switch, turning a switch that helps.

810
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:54,520
Some things I can't do, like when, when it's the work is so intense, like I have to sleep

811
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:55,520
more obviously.

812
00:50:55,520 --> 00:51:01,200
And I used to love to read, but now reading is not, I need to do something physical, something

813
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,360
that's more, yeah, but you're right.

814
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:11,000
It's, you know, I only work about, if I look back, it's about three contracts a year, which

815
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:15,160
is not very many, but it's ongoing.

816
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:21,120
So it feels like it's the whole year and I'm working with a group right now and this is

817
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,840
already, this is my eighth month on their contract.

818
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:28,680
So like I need to develop the stamina, like I have the intellectual stamina to do it,

819
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:33,440
but like figuring out the physical stamina plan is important.

820
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:34,840
It's important for them.

821
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:36,000
Or else I can't do it.

822
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:37,000
You know, I can't do it.

823
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:42,520
And you know, and I, my doctor remembers the time this was during one of the more stressful

824
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,520
periods, I developed a bad habit.

825
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:50,080
I started smoking, which I'm not a smoker.

826
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,760
And you know, that only, it lasted nine months.

827
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:54,440
It lasted exactly nine months.

828
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:55,440
And then I just like stopped.

829
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,180
And now I'm like, I can't even believe that I did that.

830
00:51:58,180 --> 00:52:03,200
But at the time it was like, it was like a poor coping mechanism.

831
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:09,360
But nevertheless, you know, it's interesting to see like what, what pulls me in what direction

832
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,440
to deal with something unexpected.

833
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,160
And you know, and I, it happens a lot.

834
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,560
It happens a lot.

835
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:17,560
Friendships help.

836
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,620
So I'll tech to friend, especially one of my Fletcher buddies.

837
00:52:20,620 --> 00:52:22,280
And that helps ground me again.

838
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,920
I was going to say, I mean, that's also important because the work I do, it's not that it's

839
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,400
secret, but I can't always talk about it openly.

840
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:36,000
It's so I need to be able to connect in a way that someone can respect that, but also

841
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:37,000
get it.

842
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:38,000
Yeah.

843
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,440
I hate to admit I started smoking too in Peace Corps.

844
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:42,920
That was my last cigarette.

845
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,440
You have to smoke, do you?

846
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,240
No, I quit.

847
00:52:47,240 --> 00:52:48,240
I quit.

848
00:52:48,240 --> 00:52:49,240
I thank God I quit.

849
00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:52,800
But yeah, something about Peace Corps.

850
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:58,640
We used to always say like right at that time it was the hardest.

851
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:00,840
It was the hardest country, but I don't know.

852
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:01,840
Yeah.

853
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:02,840
I smoked too in Peace Corps.

854
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:03,840
Yeah.

855
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:04,840
Yeah.

856
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:06,840
So there, you know, the coping, I mean, I'm human too, right?

857
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,080
Like well, good, what's good habits and bad habits.

858
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:13,680
I mean, I have to have a good relationship with my PCP, my doctor, because of the work

859
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:18,080
I do, I need, you know, I often need like fitness for duty and I need his advice and

860
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:20,880
guidance about this or that.

861
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:26,200
So when he, and he has a good record of giving me good suggestions that work.

862
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,320
And so he, when he told me, he's like, are you really smoking?

863
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:30,680
Do you realize X, Y, and Z?

864
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:32,680
And I'm like, oh no.

865
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:33,680
Okay.

866
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:34,680
Yeah.

867
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:40,000
So there's unhealthy coping and then there's healthy coping or healthy habits that are

868
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,000
able to bring us out of those.

869
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:44,000
Nice.

870
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:46,480
So what are you looking forward to doing next?

871
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:47,480
What are you excited about?

872
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:52,800
Gosh, well, professionally, uh, every project is new and different and that's always wonderful.

873
00:53:52,800 --> 00:54:00,040
I never know when I don't think I'm ever sure until I see like an actual contract, but what

874
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:01,680
I'm going to do next.

875
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:08,240
But something has happened with the most recent work in that not only is it multilateral,

876
00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:12,480
so that was a big change used to be just one or two, one country, mine, and then where

877
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:14,760
I went, but now it's multiple countries.

878
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:19,680
And that it also used to be that I would go to a place and that's how things start with

879
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:21,840
a face to face training.

880
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:26,920
And then there's people that I support or that are supporting others that's developed

881
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:27,920
over time.

882
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:35,800
But now I'm doing this thing where it's kind of the models kind of flipped where I'm supporting,

883
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:44,000
uh, specialized, uh, advisors, mental health advisors for a large organization who are

884
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:47,160
supporting what we call focal points.

885
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,960
So like points of contact in 20 countries.

886
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:50,960
Wow.

887
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:57,040
Those focal points are supporting multiple staff members in multiple regions of each

888
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,080
of those 20 countries.

889
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:00,080
Wow.

890
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:06,480
I've been, I'm expanding like extended time with these, this small group of advisors and

891
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:12,880
essentially, um, training them, preparing them, supervising them with the technical

892
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:17,360
expertise that they can continue this in a sustainable way.

893
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:22,600
Um, that, that, I mean, and I conceivably, I will never meet any of the people that they're

894
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:23,600
supporting.

895
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:24,600
So that's interesting.

896
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:27,160
It's like somehow it's flipped.

897
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:30,520
And I do think that something like that is the future.

898
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:34,120
Um, I mean, that's certainly what global mental health is about.

899
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:39,200
Like how can we reduce disparities in ways that are sustainable for an appropriate to

900
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,160
country context, not just culture.

901
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:44,520
Culture is important, but culture and country context.

902
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:49,680
And in low and middle income countries, we have to be creative in how we think about

903
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:54,120
doing that while also using the evidence.

904
00:55:54,120 --> 00:56:00,920
So the support I'm giving to this small group, you know, really hinges on these like evidence

905
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:07,680
based interventions that are teachable and implementable and that work.

906
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:11,960
Now that's it, you know, that's it, you know, I went to school for 12 years to get my family

907
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:12,960
therapy 12 years.

908
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:18,160
So like that's the contrast to like what, you know, what that looks like on the other

909
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:23,720
side of the Janice face is fascinating, you know, raises lots of interesting questions.

910
00:56:23,720 --> 00:56:29,640
Um, but my interest is like, well, how, you know, I just want to keep doing more of that.

911
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:31,600
And I'm at the level now.

912
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:39,120
I really want to support other people in my field to do more of that, mentor them, find,

913
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:44,720
help them find opportunities, help them develop their experience and skillset.

914
00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:46,360
And that's, I'm kind of focused on that now.

915
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:52,600
I mean, I do a lot of it informally, but I try to, you know, find avenues where more

916
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:53,800
of that can happen.

917
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,280
I always think the last contract I had, you know, like, who knows what I'll get the next

918
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:58,280
one.

919
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:00,520
And then the next one shows up, you know, like, okay.

920
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:04,840
And it's like an email or a note on LinkedIn or something.

921
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:08,880
And then we have a chat and here we are in the midst of six months later, eight months

922
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:09,960
later.

923
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:10,960
And that's very humbling.

924
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:11,960
It's like, wow.

925
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:18,240
I mean, there's something about the, it's not without purpose, but I, I don't, um, you

926
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:22,280
know, things come and that's, you know, that's kind of nice.

927
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:24,160
So it doesn't feel stressful.

928
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:25,720
It was nice.

929
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:26,980
It was good.

930
00:57:26,980 --> 00:57:33,160
But things coming means there's still conflict out there that requires your services.

931
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:38,280
I mean, the world is, is not changing in terms of reduction of conflict.

932
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:44,080
I mean, there's Ukraine, there's so much going on right now that is, it seems like you're

933
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:48,680
never going to run out of demand for mental health.

934
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:54,040
I mean, in fact, the thing we started with the COVID, I mean, we're all still living

935
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:55,200
in that post COVID world.

936
00:57:55,200 --> 00:58:00,920
So, uh, you know, the earthquake on top of COVID and the Ukrainian were on top of COVID

937
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:01,920
on top of the earthquake.

938
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:07,760
But what I think what is different, it feels like more solid or more like, um, like it

939
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:14,000
feels like that's something purposeful is that it's clearer now at the international

940
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:17,680
level how family therapy can work.

941
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:24,040
It's clearer like how it can work and how we can implement a skillset that will reduce

942
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:31,760
mental health disparities and improve outcomes for individuals and families.

943
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:38,840
And now there's like really clear, like declarative interests in family systems expertise.

944
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:39,840
And that's very exciting.

945
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:44,120
But, you know, I'm at like, you know, I'm not at the beginning.

946
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:45,600
So for me, it's a different kind of exciting.

947
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:47,600
I'm like, okay, they're ready.

948
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:48,600
We were at the table.

949
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:54,880
But now I have to like, you know, uh, see how to bring more of my U S Western based

950
00:58:54,880 --> 00:59:00,160
colleagues, you know, I mean, we have so many, we have so many programs in the United States

951
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:07,200
and you know, family therapy, uh, emerging scholars are not, are, they're not all U S

952
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:11,520
citizens and they're not all born and raised in the U S it's very international.

953
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:17,200
So we, we're not, we didn't, we need to match like the demographic of the student and the

954
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:23,280
emerging scholar with the demographic of this need that's international across the globe.

955
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:24,720
And we haven't done that.

956
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:28,720
Well, we're still very, uh, it's still very traditional in my view.

957
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:31,240
So I'm kind of, that kind of inspires me.

958
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:34,160
I'm inspired by being frustrated actually, Erica.

959
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:39,920
So when I get frustrated about something, I'm like, oh, it makes me, you know, I'll

960
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:44,200
go and like write a, write a book, write an article or, you know, do something, try and

961
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:45,200
do something.

962
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:50,280
And that's like, also like a Herman, I think Judith Herman's ideas, like action is a helpful

963
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:51,280
way.

964
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:52,280
You know?

965
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:53,280
Yeah.

966
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:56,960
Well, frustration, uh, breeds, you know, solutions.

967
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:02,900
If you are willing to investigate something and be frustrated by something, then that's

968
01:00:02,900 --> 01:00:06,980
why the, the creative juices start flowing and the intellectual juices start flowing

969
01:00:06,980 --> 01:00:08,880
to solve problems.

970
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:10,760
So I love that actually.

971
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,720
One thing that I really liked that you mentioned was, and we had talked about it a bit earlier

972
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:21,560
in the discussion is that having an impact in the world is not necessarily how many people

973
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:29,280
you are individually touching, but I love the, the kind of model you can build around

974
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:35,800
your training, certain people, each of those people goes and trains 10 more people who

975
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:39,960
trains 20 more people who impacts 50 more people.

976
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,660
And that's how do you scale your impact?

977
01:00:42,660 --> 01:00:45,040
It's really through others, right?

978
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:46,600
It's not always about ourselves.

979
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:47,600
Yeah.

980
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:48,960
I love that.

981
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:51,400
I love that way you put that.

982
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:52,400
Absolutely.

983
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:53,400
Absolutely.

984
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:54,400
Yeah.

985
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:58,320
I mean, and it's almost really never about me.

986
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:03,120
It's maybe start to be, there's a pinpoint where something happened, you know, on June

987
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:08,040
14th in Beirut, Laurie gets frustrated about something.

988
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:11,320
And then all of a sudden 10,000 people are getting trained.

989
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:12,920
Yeah.

990
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:13,920
Yeah.

991
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:14,920
Like that.

992
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:15,920
Yeah.

993
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:16,920
Yeah.

994
01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:20,520
I can say, go learn Arabic or something.

995
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:21,520
Yeah.

996
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:22,520
Yeah.

997
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:26,920
I tried to ask this question whenever I talked to a guest, what, what do you want to be remembered

998
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:27,920
for?

999
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:28,920
Yeah.

1000
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:29,920
I saw that.

1001
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:30,920
Oh my gosh.

1002
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:38,600
I saw that, that question and one of your, and one of your other, one of your other guests,

1003
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:40,720
that's such a hard question to answer.

1004
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:47,000
I don't think about it in the moment, but I, I've thought of, I mean, it comes to mind

1005
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:52,160
after I've heard something from somebody and I like, I'm like, oh, I like that.

1006
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:55,080
Or I didn't think that that mattered to me, but that matters to me.

1007
01:01:55,080 --> 01:02:01,920
So like, for example, I had one person after a training and this was a person who was a

1008
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:05,760
little bit more senior in the training group.

1009
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:11,120
So also a little bit more, not quite adversarial with me in the training group, but, but less

1010
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:18,560
receptive, you know, more seasoned, more, more skeptical perhaps, which is, I kind of

1011
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:22,560
also find refreshing because the people are so excited about family therapy.

1012
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,320
They can't see where there might be a flaw or a challenge.

1013
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:30,280
And this person's off, but by the end of the training, he, he gave me this beautiful compliment.

1014
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:33,140
I had to go look it up on Google because I'd never heard of it.

1015
01:02:33,140 --> 01:02:38,320
He said something like you're, he said, you're like the, you're like the, the blue ocean.

1016
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:42,400
You're, you're the way that you train is like the blue ocean or the blue water.

1017
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:43,400
And I didn't know what he meant.

1018
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:45,440
It was the deep compliment.

1019
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:51,400
I went and looked it up and then some concept around fluidity and adaptability in the training.

1020
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,600
And now this struck me because of the way he had been in the training and I didn't know

1021
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:56,100
him.

1022
01:02:56,100 --> 01:03:02,480
And I, you know, I've heard other things like that language in other ways that that

1023
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:05,120
resonated the way that he put it.

1024
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:10,640
And when I'm engaged with somebody, whether it's a client family or it's a training group

1025
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:16,040
or a colleague whose work I'm supporting because they're supporting other people in, in this

1026
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:21,720
part of the globe, there's something about the human connection that happens.

1027
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:27,520
And when I'm training, there's something about that, that it's natural for me.

1028
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:29,320
Like I don't notice that I'm doing it.

1029
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:32,360
I don't notice it as an, as effortful.

1030
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:38,280
Like I'm focused on, on a, on a skillset, but, but I have to, you know, to get that

1031
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:42,320
skillset to happen, I have to orchestrate a role play to orchestrate a role play.

1032
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:48,080
I have to have my interpreter on board with me or sometimes two interpreters.

1033
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:55,520
I have to also have orchestrated and managed and, and, and enriched the safety in the room

1034
01:03:55,520 --> 01:04:02,360
between the people present, which is not a given because of the nature of the experiences

1035
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:04,840
that are happening where they live.

1036
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:07,480
And those things are also natural for me.

1037
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:12,640
And I think it's maybe my experience working with families, like everybody's, you know,

1038
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:13,640
nobody agrees on anything.

1039
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:15,200
And, but that's how you start.

1040
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:18,520
It's like, okay, we can at least agree that we don't agree on it.

1041
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:20,720
You know, you start with the important thing.

1042
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:24,840
And so something about that, I don't even know really what it is.

1043
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:27,280
And that's why I think it's kind of nice to be remembered by it.

1044
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:32,880
Like something that I'm doing resonates in a way that I still can't explain and it doesn't

1045
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:34,400
feel like work.

1046
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:38,760
So that's something I like that I'm like, okay, I can live with that.

1047
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,520
You know, I can live and die with that legacy.

1048
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:47,120
And, you know, maybe in 20 years, these people I'm training now who are training 20 and 20

1049
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:52,400
and 20 others will be able to say, ah, what happened there was that's how we did this.

1050
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:53,400
Yeah.

1051
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:54,400
Yeah.

1052
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:58,560
And even like today I mentioned to you that role play that I watched when I was a master

1053
01:04:58,560 --> 01:04:59,560
student.

1054
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:00,560
Yeah.

1055
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:03,400
And that is a legacy that that that professor left for me.

1056
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:04,760
Is this a simple role play?

1057
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:05,760
Oh, that's so beautiful.

1058
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:08,760
It's, I mean, isn't that, yeah.

1059
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:12,680
So, yeah, I'll be okay with that.

1060
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:15,080
I'll be okay with that.

1061
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:16,320
That is awesome.

1062
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:20,840
It's so beautiful to think 20 years from now there's going to be somebody in one of these

1063
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:24,560
far flung countries that said, I remembered that role play.

1064
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:25,560
Yeah.

1065
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:27,640
Oh, it's going to be so beautiful.

1066
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:28,640
Yeah.

1067
01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:29,640
Simple too.

1068
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:35,600
I think, you know, I think it's also important to be to be nice to people.

1069
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:38,600
And I'd like to be like kindness.

1070
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:48,560
And I have seen a lot of that not happening in places where people's agenda or the, you

1071
01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:56,000
know, just lots of reasons and ways that things can get unpleasant, you know, to put it mildly

1072
01:05:56,000 --> 01:06:01,120
and how much kindness matters, like in every situation, how much kindness matters, you

1073
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:06,600
know, even when, when it's hard, like, how do I do this in a way?

1074
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:11,840
I mean, it's kind of a kind of a diplomacy, you know, diplomacy of kindness, you know,

1075
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:16,480
because you never know what's going to happen in the place and you don't, you never know.

1076
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:22,160
And you always have to act in a way that you, that whatever you have imprint you lead can

1077
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:23,360
continue.

1078
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:27,880
So that changes like the nature of how you behave.

1079
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:31,960
And it's not like I'm an unkind person or not nice person, but I didn't used to think

1080
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:33,440
it was important.

1081
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:35,080
And I would, I would say it's important.

1082
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:36,560
So I would add that to the thing.

1083
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:39,560
So, oh, she's nice.

1084
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:41,360
She's nice.

1085
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:42,360
Absolutely.

1086
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:43,360
Absolutely.

1087
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:44,360
Wow.

1088
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:50,360
So, I'm, I'm just very, I'm trying to process what I'm feeling after this conversation.

1089
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:59,040
I'm feeling very inspired in a way, because I think lots of people wondering, I mean,

1090
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:04,640
a lot of people are reassessing their careers, reassessing their situations, like we said,

1091
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:06,120
post COVID and everything.

1092
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:11,960
And for people who do want to have an impact, I think I really think that concept of kind

1093
01:07:11,960 --> 01:07:20,640
of propagating your impact across, across people so that they can take it and propagate

1094
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:21,640
it as well.

1095
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:30,200
And remember you for that is such a key, a key fulfilling kind of concepts for how you

1096
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:31,320
can view your career.

1097
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:38,600
So I'm really taking that away from this conversation and just the memories, the, the Togo memories

1098
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:41,280
are so, so fun.

1099
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:44,040
And we didn't even talk about all the juicy stuff.

1100
01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:51,680
Our bike rides and our village meetups right before it got dark.

1101
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:52,680
Absolutely.

1102
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:53,680
Absolutely.

1103
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:59,960
So if any of our listeners are interested, you are on LinkedIn.

1104
01:07:59,960 --> 01:08:00,960
Yes.

1105
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:05,720
Do you have a website or anything that I can, I can link people to?

1106
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:11,640
I don't have a personal website, but there's a project I did with a colleague at the start

1107
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:18,360
of the pandemic where we created a website with a number of different pieces on it.

1108
01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:20,640
It's a global family systems.com.

1109
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:21,640
Perfect.

1110
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:26,800
I will, I will put links to those in the, in the description as well.

1111
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:28,800
So people can reach out.

1112
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,960
I just want to say thank you so much, Lori.

1113
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:33,520
It's been an amazing discussion.

1114
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:36,080
Oh, I've loved talking to you.

1115
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:37,720
So great to be here.

1116
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:40,720
Thank you so much for the conversation.

1117
01:08:40,720 --> 01:09:03,720
Thanks.