Executive Loneliness: Overcoming Addiction and Finding Purpose with Nick Jonsson

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,920 Vulnerability has to start on the top. 2 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:04,140 So if you have a leader who's not feeling well, 3 00:00:04,140 --> 00:00:05,240 who's not vulnerable, 4 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,020 who's not having honest conversation externally, 5 00:00:08,020 --> 00:00:10,320 this leader will be inside the company, 6 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:13,420 not feeling well and leading in the wrong way. 7 00:00:14,780 --> 00:00:18,180 Hello, and welcome to Every Moment is a Choice. 8 00:00:18,180 --> 00:00:20,300 I'm your host, Erica Behl, 9 00:00:20,300 --> 00:00:23,020 and I invite you to join me on a transformative journey 10 00:00:23,020 --> 00:00:24,920 to uncover the extraordinary potential 11 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,100 that lies within every single moment of our lives. 12 00:00:28,100 --> 00:00:31,540 From the choices we make in our relationships, careers, 13 00:00:31,540 --> 00:00:33,300 and personal growth, 14 00:00:33,300 --> 00:00:36,340 to the mindset we embrace in the face of adversity, 15 00:00:36,340 --> 00:00:39,140 this podcast will empower you to embrace the notion 16 00:00:39,140 --> 00:00:41,320 that every moment holds a choice, 17 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:42,860 and it's up to us to seize it. 18 00:00:43,980 --> 00:00:46,300 Join me as we engage in insightful conversations 19 00:00:46,300 --> 00:00:49,600 with thought leaders, experts, and everyday people 20 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,660 who have harnessed the power of choice to achieve greatness, 21 00:00:52,660 --> 00:00:56,680 overcome obstacles, and create extraordinary lives. 22 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:58,820 If you feel inspired by this episode, 23 00:00:58,820 --> 00:01:01,440 please read it and consider subscribing. 24 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:03,380 I'm keen to know how it's impacted you. 25 00:01:04,420 --> 00:01:07,860 Today, I'm honored to have Nick Johnson on the podcast. 26 00:01:07,860 --> 00:01:08,780 Hi, Nick. 27 00:01:08,780 --> 00:01:11,100 Hey, how's it going, Erica? 28 00:01:11,100 --> 00:01:13,660 It's going well, it's going well. 29 00:01:13,660 --> 00:01:16,600 So Nick, you know, looking at you today, 30 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,160 you're a wildly successful person, 31 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:20,920 at least from the outside, right? 32 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,300 You're managing director of EDN, 33 00:01:23,300 --> 00:01:25,820 Executives Global Network in Southeast Asia, 34 00:01:25,820 --> 00:01:28,200 which is the region's largest peer-to-peer network 35 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:29,700 for executives. 36 00:01:29,700 --> 00:01:32,120 You're an accomplished Ironman triathlete. 37 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,580 You have a stunning wife, shout out to Donna, 38 00:01:36,580 --> 00:01:40,300 and you're an in-demand keynote speaker and published author. 39 00:01:40,300 --> 00:01:42,260 But you're also in recovery. 40 00:01:42,260 --> 00:01:45,620 And just a few years ago, your life was 41 00:01:45,620 --> 00:01:48,740 in such a fragile state that you thought 42 00:01:48,740 --> 00:01:51,700 that this may be the end, and you actually wrote a will 43 00:01:51,700 --> 00:01:55,940 and basically thought, you know, things could be over. 44 00:01:55,940 --> 00:01:59,820 And you now tell your story to many people 45 00:01:59,820 --> 00:02:01,540 about coming back from the brink. 46 00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:06,460 You're also a vocal advocate for substance recovery, 47 00:02:06,460 --> 00:02:10,100 for loneliness and depression awareness and treatment. 48 00:02:10,100 --> 00:02:13,460 And you're having an impact, a positive impact 49 00:02:13,460 --> 00:02:16,460 on thousands and thousands of people through your work. 50 00:02:16,460 --> 00:02:18,340 So I'm so honored to have you here today, Nick. 51 00:02:18,340 --> 00:02:19,340 Thank you. 52 00:02:19,340 --> 00:02:22,260 Well, thank you, Erika, for that warm introduction. 53 00:02:22,260 --> 00:02:24,940 And it's great to be here with you to talk about this. 54 00:02:24,940 --> 00:02:27,380 And perhaps if you had this conversation with me 55 00:02:27,380 --> 00:02:29,980 six years ago, you would not have heard anything 56 00:02:29,980 --> 00:02:31,860 that I'm about to say today. 57 00:02:31,860 --> 00:02:33,020 Thank you for sharing. 58 00:02:33,020 --> 00:02:35,540 So let's go back, because six years ago 59 00:02:35,540 --> 00:02:38,180 is an important time in your life. 60 00:02:38,180 --> 00:02:41,700 So there's one date that you've written about in your book, 61 00:02:41,700 --> 00:02:45,580 which we'll get to later, and that is May 5th, 2018. 62 00:02:45,580 --> 00:02:47,900 Can you tell us about the significance of that date 63 00:02:47,900 --> 00:02:49,700 for you and what led up to it? 64 00:02:49,700 --> 00:02:52,580 Yes, so what happened leading up to that really 65 00:02:52,580 --> 00:02:55,860 was that I was let go from a few jobs, 66 00:02:55,860 --> 00:02:59,340 mergers, acquisitions, changes, and so on. 67 00:02:59,340 --> 00:03:01,940 And I tried to deal with all the insecurities 68 00:03:01,940 --> 00:03:05,820 and all the anxiety that comes from being let go from a job, 69 00:03:05,820 --> 00:03:08,980 especially a job which perhaps you define yourself 70 00:03:08,980 --> 00:03:10,700 in your workplace and with your job. 71 00:03:10,700 --> 00:03:14,740 And also as expats, the work permit, the housing, 72 00:03:14,740 --> 00:03:18,060 the allowances, even perhaps our status in the country 73 00:03:18,060 --> 00:03:19,540 is relying on your job. 74 00:03:19,540 --> 00:03:21,380 So once you lose that, you lose everything. 75 00:03:21,380 --> 00:03:24,380 And I was not ready for that, and I didn't know 76 00:03:24,380 --> 00:03:25,860 how to explain it to anyone. 77 00:03:25,860 --> 00:03:28,500 So my way to deal with it was keeping it secret, 78 00:03:28,500 --> 00:03:31,060 trying to cover it for everyone, including my family 79 00:03:31,060 --> 00:03:34,020 and everyone, and just pushing everyone away from me 80 00:03:34,020 --> 00:03:36,580 because I was scared that someone would find out 81 00:03:36,580 --> 00:03:38,580 that I've been terminated from my jobs. 82 00:03:38,580 --> 00:03:39,700 So that's where it started. 83 00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:43,460 And when you do that for years, you start to live a life 84 00:03:43,460 --> 00:03:46,700 that was full of fear, full of anxiety. 85 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:49,580 And even eventually, my third job I got into, 86 00:03:49,580 --> 00:03:52,340 I did very well, but I was terrified 87 00:03:52,340 --> 00:03:54,620 that when would be the moment that I'm let go again. 88 00:03:54,620 --> 00:03:57,380 So that was, Erika, what was leading up to this. 89 00:03:57,380 --> 00:04:01,060 And my way of coping then was isolating myself, 90 00:04:01,060 --> 00:04:04,740 consuming alcohol, fast food, stop exercising, 91 00:04:04,740 --> 00:04:07,500 and doing all the things that I normally wouldn't do 92 00:04:07,500 --> 00:04:09,380 because I had a life before as well 93 00:04:09,380 --> 00:04:11,580 when I was into marathon and Ironman events 94 00:04:11,580 --> 00:04:14,540 and I was managing my life, but it all fell apart 95 00:04:14,540 --> 00:04:17,620 over three years, from 2015 to 18. 96 00:04:17,620 --> 00:04:19,140 So that's perhaps where we can start. 97 00:04:19,140 --> 00:04:21,340 And then I can share with you what happened then 98 00:04:21,340 --> 00:04:23,700 in 2018 as well, Erika. 99 00:04:23,700 --> 00:04:27,060 Yeah, so what did happen in 2018? 100 00:04:27,060 --> 00:04:30,500 Yeah, so I had until then kept everything secret 101 00:04:30,500 --> 00:04:33,500 and silent, and one day though, I couldn't cope with it. 102 00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:36,180 And as you said, also, I had started to write my will, 103 00:04:36,180 --> 00:04:38,500 my testament, and I thought, you know, is this the end? 104 00:04:38,500 --> 00:04:39,860 Is this how it should be? 105 00:04:39,860 --> 00:04:41,940 But then one day I decided to speak up. 106 00:04:41,940 --> 00:04:45,100 I told Donna, who's today my wife, 107 00:04:45,100 --> 00:04:48,060 how I felt, she immediately dragged me to a doctor. 108 00:04:48,060 --> 00:04:50,060 She told my story to the doctor. 109 00:04:50,060 --> 00:04:52,820 And after that, she dragged me to a friend of mine 110 00:04:52,820 --> 00:04:55,060 who had gone through something similar before. 111 00:04:55,060 --> 00:04:57,260 That friend linked me to a recovery group. 112 00:04:57,260 --> 00:05:00,020 And the next day I was in a meeting, 113 00:05:00,020 --> 00:05:02,300 basically listening to others who'd gone 114 00:05:02,300 --> 00:05:04,660 through similar accidents, you know what I'm saying, 115 00:05:04,660 --> 00:05:07,780 or layoffs in the past, and going through also drinking 116 00:05:07,780 --> 00:05:08,980 issues and so on. 117 00:05:08,980 --> 00:05:10,580 So I felt completely normal. 118 00:05:10,580 --> 00:05:13,460 So within 24 hours, I was completely exposed. 119 00:05:13,460 --> 00:05:16,660 I felt this was nothing that I have to keep secret about. 120 00:05:16,660 --> 00:05:18,820 And I was starting to share my story. 121 00:05:18,820 --> 00:05:21,420 And that was basically a V-shaped recovery 122 00:05:21,420 --> 00:05:25,060 from feeling that life is over to being fully alive again. 123 00:05:25,060 --> 00:05:27,940 So it sounds like it was almost an intervention. 124 00:05:27,940 --> 00:05:30,700 You know, like you told she knew what was going on. 125 00:05:30,700 --> 00:05:33,780 And she said, listen, we have to involve professionals here. 126 00:05:33,780 --> 00:05:34,820 We have to do something. 127 00:05:34,820 --> 00:05:37,420 So it was somebody, it was not you going to a doctor, 128 00:05:37,420 --> 00:05:39,900 but it was somebody saying, I care about you enough 129 00:05:39,900 --> 00:05:41,980 that we need to stop this right now. 130 00:05:41,980 --> 00:05:43,020 Yes, absolutely. 131 00:05:43,020 --> 00:05:45,340 And when I went to the doctor also, 132 00:05:45,340 --> 00:05:47,260 because she shared what was going on, 133 00:05:47,260 --> 00:05:49,900 and I was consuming too much alcohol, 134 00:05:49,900 --> 00:05:51,580 but perhaps many people do that. 135 00:05:51,580 --> 00:05:55,460 And so for her, it was not the big thing. 136 00:05:55,460 --> 00:05:57,260 She fought all Westerners are drinking. 137 00:05:57,260 --> 00:05:58,980 But I was also hiding the drinking. 138 00:05:58,980 --> 00:06:00,060 I tried not to show it. 139 00:06:00,060 --> 00:06:02,820 So I was probably consuming more than what she felt. 140 00:06:02,820 --> 00:06:04,700 And therefore, you know, it was needed 141 00:06:04,700 --> 00:06:06,420 to have this conversation with the doctor. 142 00:06:06,420 --> 00:06:10,180 And I had to let go of alcohol. 143 00:06:10,180 --> 00:06:11,700 I had to start eating healthy again. 144 00:06:11,700 --> 00:06:13,620 I had to get back into exercise. 145 00:06:13,620 --> 00:06:16,100 All these things that I used to be able to do. 146 00:06:16,100 --> 00:06:17,060 And I did. 147 00:06:17,060 --> 00:06:19,140 And that's where I keep going now. 148 00:06:19,140 --> 00:06:20,660 It's five and a half years later. 149 00:06:20,660 --> 00:06:22,300 And I haven't had a drink since. 150 00:06:22,300 --> 00:06:25,300 So it had a big impact on me that moment. 151 00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:26,220 Absolutely. 152 00:06:26,220 --> 00:06:29,100 So May 5th is the last time you drank. 153 00:06:29,100 --> 00:06:30,340 Yes, yes. 154 00:06:30,340 --> 00:06:31,340 May 5th, 2018. 155 00:06:31,340 --> 00:06:32,540 Yeah, that's amazing. 156 00:06:32,540 --> 00:06:35,020 Congratulations on that as well. 157 00:06:35,020 --> 00:06:39,500 After you got the help to quit the alcohol from Donna, 158 00:06:39,500 --> 00:06:41,100 from the doctors. 159 00:06:41,100 --> 00:06:43,220 But was that the end of the struggle? 160 00:06:43,220 --> 00:06:46,300 Because I thought you had some tough moments after that as 161 00:06:46,300 --> 00:06:49,260 well with a friend or colleague. 162 00:06:49,260 --> 00:06:49,780 Yes. 163 00:06:49,780 --> 00:06:52,740 So what happened then was while I 164 00:06:52,740 --> 00:06:55,740 was sharing my story with Donna, who became my wife 165 00:06:55,740 --> 00:06:58,540 at this time, and also with the doctor, 166 00:06:58,540 --> 00:07:01,460 and indeed in the close circle of a recovery group, 167 00:07:01,460 --> 00:07:04,340 I felt because this was confidential, anonymous, 168 00:07:04,340 --> 00:07:05,780 I felt fine to share it. 169 00:07:05,780 --> 00:07:08,340 But I wasn't really ready to share my story 170 00:07:08,340 --> 00:07:09,780 with the rest of the world. 171 00:07:09,780 --> 00:07:11,340 But I was already doing great. 172 00:07:11,340 --> 00:07:15,860 I mean, I had lost the 30 kilos I lost in one year. 173 00:07:15,860 --> 00:07:19,660 I was back competing in a full Ironman 2019 again, 174 00:07:19,660 --> 00:07:23,700 running marathons and so on, and feeling the best shape ever. 175 00:07:23,700 --> 00:07:25,780 But I was not ready to tell the world. 176 00:07:25,780 --> 00:07:28,540 But then one incident changed everything. 177 00:07:28,540 --> 00:07:31,660 I had a friend of mine, indeed, who I was working with, 178 00:07:31,660 --> 00:07:34,300 who was about to give a talk to EGN members. 179 00:07:34,300 --> 00:07:36,340 And he didn't show up for the rehearsal. 180 00:07:36,340 --> 00:07:38,740 And we were wondering what had happened to him. 181 00:07:38,740 --> 00:07:41,420 And after the rehearsal, then I checked my phone 182 00:07:41,420 --> 00:07:44,020 and I received a message that he had died of suicide. 183 00:07:44,020 --> 00:07:47,740 And that left me shocked and many other people shocked. 184 00:07:47,740 --> 00:07:50,980 I called his brother, who also was a complete surprise. 185 00:07:50,980 --> 00:07:53,460 We were wondering what was going on here. 186 00:07:53,460 --> 00:07:56,020 He was someone who was living, perhaps, 187 00:07:56,020 --> 00:07:58,220 having the best year of his life. 188 00:07:58,220 --> 00:08:00,660 He's just been to Mount Everest, the base camp there, 189 00:08:00,660 --> 00:08:02,340 which was one of his dreams. 190 00:08:02,340 --> 00:08:03,940 And he shared on social media. 191 00:08:03,940 --> 00:08:06,540 He created a Facebook group, which I followed. 192 00:08:06,540 --> 00:08:08,260 He shared a video every day and so on. 193 00:08:08,260 --> 00:08:11,500 And he was so full of life that we just couldn't understand 194 00:08:11,500 --> 00:08:12,740 what was going on. 195 00:08:12,740 --> 00:08:13,620 And he was gone. 196 00:08:13,620 --> 00:08:16,140 And that was the game changer for me. 197 00:08:16,140 --> 00:08:19,460 Because I then asked his brother if I could set up a fund 198 00:08:19,460 --> 00:08:22,980 and do a charity activity to raise awareness of this 199 00:08:22,980 --> 00:08:25,420 and funds for suicide prevention. 200 00:08:25,420 --> 00:08:28,580 And his brother said, sure, go ahead with it. 201 00:08:28,580 --> 00:08:29,980 That's what Simon would have wanted. 202 00:08:29,980 --> 00:08:31,500 Shout it out loud. 203 00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:34,740 And that was his call to me and get into action. 204 00:08:34,740 --> 00:08:37,580 So I made a video then in conjunction 205 00:08:37,580 --> 00:08:39,060 with setting up this fund. 206 00:08:39,060 --> 00:08:41,220 And it went viral on LinkedIn. 207 00:08:41,220 --> 00:08:43,300 So within 24 hours, hundreds of people 208 00:08:43,300 --> 00:08:45,780 were writing all over the world wanting to support it 209 00:08:45,780 --> 00:08:46,660 and so on. 210 00:08:46,660 --> 00:08:48,740 And then the radio stations contacted me. 211 00:08:48,740 --> 00:08:50,260 TV contacted me. 212 00:08:50,260 --> 00:08:52,780 And there I was without being ready. 213 00:08:52,780 --> 00:08:54,380 But they asked me all the questions. 214 00:08:54,380 --> 00:08:58,140 And I shared my full story for the first time then. 215 00:08:58,140 --> 00:09:00,940 Because they asked me questions about my story. 216 00:09:00,940 --> 00:09:02,780 And then there was no way turning back. 217 00:09:02,780 --> 00:09:04,580 I had to be in an open book. 218 00:09:04,580 --> 00:09:08,180 So it was the second incident that really changed my life. 219 00:09:08,180 --> 00:09:08,980 Wow. 220 00:09:08,980 --> 00:09:11,820 So you took the initiative based on wanting 221 00:09:11,820 --> 00:09:13,900 to share the story of your colleague and friend 222 00:09:13,900 --> 00:09:15,100 and what he had gone through. 223 00:09:15,100 --> 00:09:18,700 And inadvertently, it became your story as well, right? 224 00:09:18,700 --> 00:09:19,740 Yes. 225 00:09:19,740 --> 00:09:22,220 And everyone wanted to hear about you as well. 226 00:09:22,220 --> 00:09:22,780 Wow. 227 00:09:22,780 --> 00:09:25,220 I mean, obviously, you're comfortable sharing it now. 228 00:09:25,220 --> 00:09:26,900 Because you do keynotes. 229 00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:28,300 You talk to audiences. 230 00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:29,900 You really reach out to people. 231 00:09:29,900 --> 00:09:31,740 But in the beginning, I mean, was it 232 00:09:31,740 --> 00:09:34,540 another point at which you felt vulnerable? 233 00:09:34,540 --> 00:09:38,060 Because initially, it was Donna and the doctors. 234 00:09:38,060 --> 00:09:40,820 And now it's almost the world knowing about this. 235 00:09:40,820 --> 00:09:44,940 How did that second kind of sharing or vulnerability feel? 236 00:09:44,940 --> 00:09:47,620 Yeah, so it was OK to perhaps answer 237 00:09:47,620 --> 00:09:49,420 a few questions on radio, TV. 238 00:09:49,420 --> 00:09:50,780 That wasn't too hard. 239 00:09:50,780 --> 00:09:53,540 But then when I was invited to give keynotes about it, 240 00:09:53,540 --> 00:09:57,660 and especially the Singapore Woman Association in 2019 241 00:09:57,660 --> 00:10:00,100 wanted to have me to spend a full evening with them 242 00:10:00,100 --> 00:10:01,460 to share my story. 243 00:10:01,460 --> 00:10:03,620 And I was very nervous for that. 244 00:10:03,620 --> 00:10:06,980 But I had at that stage learned that already 245 00:10:06,980 --> 00:10:09,500 that if I have these feelings of anxiety and so on, 246 00:10:09,500 --> 00:10:11,740 I have to immediately reach out for help. 247 00:10:11,740 --> 00:10:15,260 So what I did, I got myself a coach, Andrew Bryant, 248 00:10:15,260 --> 00:10:18,100 immediately, who is a very good public speaker. 249 00:10:18,100 --> 00:10:20,340 And he helped me to prepare for the talk. 250 00:10:20,340 --> 00:10:21,460 He was my coach. 251 00:10:21,460 --> 00:10:22,500 I did rehearsing. 252 00:10:22,500 --> 00:10:24,940 I gave my talk in his house in front of him. 253 00:10:24,940 --> 00:10:25,700 He questioned me. 254 00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:26,660 He challenged me. 255 00:10:26,660 --> 00:10:29,100 He supported me and gave me the confidence. 256 00:10:29,100 --> 00:10:32,500 While he wasn't allowed to be at that particular keynote, 257 00:10:32,500 --> 00:10:34,820 because it was only me who was a man in the audience, 258 00:10:34,820 --> 00:10:37,260 it was a woman audience. 259 00:10:37,260 --> 00:10:38,860 He came to other talks later on. 260 00:10:38,860 --> 00:10:40,700 And I worked with him for about one year. 261 00:10:40,700 --> 00:10:43,420 And then I moved on to have other coaches. 262 00:10:43,420 --> 00:10:46,700 So that's the life that I live now that I constantly 263 00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:49,180 acknowledge the pain, the anxiety. 264 00:10:49,180 --> 00:10:51,420 If this feeling comes, then I write it down 265 00:10:51,420 --> 00:10:54,220 and immediately ask myself, who can I ask for help here? 266 00:10:54,220 --> 00:10:56,740 Who knows how to handle this situation? 267 00:10:56,740 --> 00:10:57,220 Yeah. 268 00:10:57,220 --> 00:11:00,820 It sounds like you've done a complete 180 in that initially, 269 00:11:00,820 --> 00:11:02,300 you were afraid to ask for help. 270 00:11:02,300 --> 00:11:06,060 It was uncomfortable sharing your vulnerability with people. 271 00:11:06,060 --> 00:11:09,340 But now, it almost seems like whatever your challenge is, 272 00:11:09,340 --> 00:11:11,100 you're ready to ask for help, because you 273 00:11:11,100 --> 00:11:14,660 know that there's someone out there that can help you with it. 274 00:11:14,660 --> 00:11:15,740 Yes, absolutely. 275 00:11:15,740 --> 00:11:18,940 And I love the saying, which I included in my book as well. 276 00:11:18,940 --> 00:11:20,820 You're only as sick as your secrets. 277 00:11:20,820 --> 00:11:24,180 And if your secrets then are that, in my case, 278 00:11:24,180 --> 00:11:27,980 that I didn't want to talk about the feelings I had 279 00:11:27,980 --> 00:11:30,620 and the alcohol addiction I had and so on. 280 00:11:30,620 --> 00:11:33,060 But once that was exposed, and if that 281 00:11:33,060 --> 00:11:35,580 was the worst parts of my life that I then discovered, 282 00:11:35,580 --> 00:11:37,300 then everything else is easy. 283 00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:39,660 So to then come to Andrew Bryant and admit, 284 00:11:39,660 --> 00:11:41,580 Andrew, I had this talk in two months. 285 00:11:41,580 --> 00:11:44,580 I'm a bit worried about the presentation. 286 00:11:44,580 --> 00:11:45,900 That's not the big ask. 287 00:11:45,900 --> 00:11:49,140 It's a much bigger challenge to come into a room 288 00:11:49,140 --> 00:11:51,580 and say that you have an alcohol problem. 289 00:11:51,580 --> 00:11:54,620 So we need to just be comfortable with uncomfortable. 290 00:11:54,620 --> 00:11:57,980 And that means getting rid of some of those biggest fears 291 00:11:57,980 --> 00:12:01,060 and get them out there and discuss them and solve them. 292 00:12:01,060 --> 00:12:01,940 Definitely. 293 00:12:01,940 --> 00:12:02,860 I love that approach. 294 00:12:02,860 --> 00:12:06,180 It's such a good advice, because we suffer in silence. 295 00:12:06,180 --> 00:12:08,780 Or I think that actually, I remember 296 00:12:08,780 --> 00:12:11,500 the phrase from your book, the smiling depression, where 297 00:12:11,500 --> 00:12:13,940 you can't see it on the outside. 298 00:12:13,940 --> 00:12:14,900 Yes, absolutely. 299 00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:18,940 Smiling depression, I think, is so common among executives, 300 00:12:18,940 --> 00:12:20,860 because we have to put on this life. 301 00:12:20,860 --> 00:12:23,660 We have to have a beautiful social media LinkedIn page, 302 00:12:23,660 --> 00:12:25,500 be on speaker panels, and so on. 303 00:12:25,500 --> 00:12:27,740 And we have to show up, of course, being the best, 304 00:12:27,740 --> 00:12:30,780 looking the greatest, even that something challenging 305 00:12:30,780 --> 00:12:32,700 is going on on the inside. 306 00:12:32,700 --> 00:12:34,460 What I'm trying to do today instead 307 00:12:34,460 --> 00:12:36,580 is also being vulnerable. 308 00:12:36,580 --> 00:12:38,660 If you have flown for a talk somewhere, 309 00:12:38,660 --> 00:12:41,060 and you're showing up, and you're not in your best shape, 310 00:12:41,060 --> 00:12:44,220 be at least authentic and share with someone what's going on. 311 00:12:44,220 --> 00:12:45,500 Don't just suppress it. 312 00:12:45,500 --> 00:12:48,500 You're OK to feel a bit jet lagged if you fly somewhere. 313 00:12:48,500 --> 00:12:50,780 And you can perhaps joke about it 314 00:12:50,780 --> 00:12:53,260 with the audience and get it out there immediately. 315 00:12:53,260 --> 00:12:55,220 Show that you're human, and then you can only 316 00:12:55,220 --> 00:12:56,460 improve from there on. 317 00:12:56,460 --> 00:12:58,340 Yeah, definitely. 318 00:12:58,340 --> 00:13:02,020 So you've actually written the book that we referenced. 319 00:13:02,020 --> 00:13:03,380 You started to share your story. 320 00:13:03,380 --> 00:13:04,460 You were doing keynotes. 321 00:13:04,460 --> 00:13:07,220 But then you took the extra step of actually writing 322 00:13:07,220 --> 00:13:07,820 the whole book. 323 00:13:07,820 --> 00:13:10,540 And you interviewed other executives and their struggles. 324 00:13:10,540 --> 00:13:13,500 And your book is called Executive Loneliness. 325 00:13:13,500 --> 00:13:17,620 So what made you move to wanting to write the book? 326 00:13:17,620 --> 00:13:20,620 What did you feel that you wanted to accomplish there? 327 00:13:20,620 --> 00:13:23,540 Well, because I had so much media exposure, 328 00:13:23,540 --> 00:13:26,580 so many great questions asked by journalists. 329 00:13:26,580 --> 00:13:28,820 And when people read these articles, 330 00:13:28,820 --> 00:13:30,700 everyone kept saying, Nick, you should 331 00:13:30,700 --> 00:13:31,860 write a book about this. 332 00:13:31,860 --> 00:13:34,580 And I'm sure we all have heard that from time to time. 333 00:13:34,580 --> 00:13:37,500 But this one, when I heard it from so many people, 334 00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:40,060 and especially when the journalists said that, 335 00:13:40,060 --> 00:13:41,740 these are the kind of articles we've 336 00:13:41,740 --> 00:13:44,580 been wanting to write for years, but we have not 337 00:13:44,580 --> 00:13:47,260 found anyone who want to be covered in them. 338 00:13:47,260 --> 00:13:50,340 Everyone was OK to be interviewed for articles 339 00:13:50,340 --> 00:13:52,780 about addiction, loneliness, and so on. 340 00:13:52,780 --> 00:13:55,140 But they would not want to be stepping forward. 341 00:13:55,140 --> 00:13:56,700 So they had to be anonymous. 342 00:13:56,700 --> 00:13:58,380 But what kind of article is that? 343 00:13:58,380 --> 00:14:00,260 The media is looking for something 344 00:14:00,260 --> 00:14:03,020 where people can actually step forward and show 345 00:14:03,020 --> 00:14:04,700 that it's real people. 346 00:14:04,700 --> 00:14:07,860 So at least in Singapore here, I was the first one. 347 00:14:07,860 --> 00:14:11,580 And this was just at the turn when suicide had been 348 00:14:11,580 --> 00:14:13,220 decriminalized in Singapore. 349 00:14:13,220 --> 00:14:16,220 It was a crime until the end of 2019. 350 00:14:16,220 --> 00:14:17,580 So here was just a switch. 351 00:14:17,580 --> 00:14:19,180 So just at the time when I started 352 00:14:19,180 --> 00:14:22,220 to have these conversations, we could have them legally 353 00:14:22,220 --> 00:14:23,260 also in Singapore. 354 00:14:23,260 --> 00:14:23,780 Yeah. 355 00:14:23,780 --> 00:14:26,180 So a lot of people have benefited your book 356 00:14:26,180 --> 00:14:27,380 because it's been imprinted. 357 00:14:27,380 --> 00:14:28,780 It's been selling very well. 358 00:14:28,780 --> 00:14:31,900 And a lot of people kind of pick it up and say, wow, 359 00:14:31,900 --> 00:14:33,660 I recognize parts of that. 360 00:14:33,660 --> 00:14:37,060 Executives, managers, leaders, anyone 361 00:14:37,060 --> 00:14:38,740 who's dealing with that. 362 00:14:38,740 --> 00:14:41,220 You've mentioned the help that you've 363 00:14:41,220 --> 00:14:43,860 gotten from anonymous support programs 364 00:14:43,860 --> 00:14:45,820 in your own alcohol recovery. 365 00:14:45,820 --> 00:14:48,340 You've volunteered with some organizations. 366 00:14:48,340 --> 00:14:52,340 And in your book, you actually outline your own five steps 367 00:14:52,340 --> 00:14:55,780 for people who are facing similar situations. 368 00:14:55,780 --> 00:14:57,500 Can you basically at a high level 369 00:14:57,500 --> 00:14:59,500 kind of go through the five steps? 370 00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:00,380 Absolutely. 371 00:15:00,380 --> 00:15:04,700 And indeed, I learned so much by this recovery program. 372 00:15:04,700 --> 00:15:06,740 And I'm sure most of our listeners 373 00:15:06,740 --> 00:15:08,380 are aware that it's 12 steps. 374 00:15:08,380 --> 00:15:10,060 And there's 12-step programs these days 375 00:15:10,060 --> 00:15:15,300 for everything from overeating, shopping, sex, gambling, 376 00:15:15,300 --> 00:15:16,580 drugs, alcohol. 377 00:15:16,580 --> 00:15:20,700 So if someone has an issue with any kind of addiction, 378 00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:23,700 there is indeed 12-step program for them. 379 00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:26,780 And most of them are run by volunteers. 380 00:15:26,780 --> 00:15:29,340 These days, I'm giving back myself, helping. 381 00:15:29,340 --> 00:15:32,260 Today, I met with other people who are new into this 382 00:15:32,260 --> 00:15:33,900 and guiding them through it. 383 00:15:33,900 --> 00:15:35,740 And by the way, the 12-step is always 384 00:15:35,740 --> 00:15:36,940 that you have to give it back. 385 00:15:36,940 --> 00:15:38,700 So once you've done the 12 steps, 386 00:15:38,700 --> 00:15:41,180 you stay on the 12 steps and helping others to go through it. 387 00:15:41,180 --> 00:15:42,740 So that's how it continues. 388 00:15:42,740 --> 00:15:46,140 And why did I then write a book with five steps? 389 00:15:46,140 --> 00:15:50,060 Well, of all the keynotes I gave in 2019, 390 00:15:50,060 --> 00:15:53,140 there was one question at the end of it from everyone. 391 00:15:53,140 --> 00:15:56,740 They say, well, Nick, it's great that you have these 12 steps. 392 00:15:56,740 --> 00:15:58,940 But what about if I'm not an alcoholic? 393 00:15:58,940 --> 00:16:01,620 What about if I don't have an addiction that 394 00:16:01,620 --> 00:16:05,980 is strong enough for me to go and seek these 12-step programs? 395 00:16:05,980 --> 00:16:08,020 And I kept writing down that question. 396 00:16:08,020 --> 00:16:11,020 And I was thinking, OK, where should these people go? 397 00:16:11,020 --> 00:16:13,180 Because I wish that they could come. 398 00:16:13,180 --> 00:16:14,660 But if you're not an alcoholic, why 399 00:16:14,660 --> 00:16:17,260 would you go to a 12-step program for alcohol? 400 00:16:17,260 --> 00:16:19,500 Well, I sort of was trying to bring in people 401 00:16:19,500 --> 00:16:21,300 because I thought, well, you have some issues there. 402 00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:22,260 You feel isolated. 403 00:16:22,260 --> 00:16:24,460 What is that isolation anonymous? 404 00:16:24,460 --> 00:16:26,700 You don't really have any program for that. 405 00:16:26,700 --> 00:16:29,340 So that's why I thought I come up with a summary. 406 00:16:29,340 --> 00:16:32,060 So the five steps is actually a summary. 407 00:16:32,060 --> 00:16:33,740 So if you don't have an alcohol addiction 408 00:16:33,740 --> 00:16:35,660 or you don't have any of those firm addictions, 409 00:16:35,660 --> 00:16:38,580 but you want to feel more of a connection to yourself, 410 00:16:38,580 --> 00:16:41,860 you want to get a bit healthy, and so on, that's the five steps. 411 00:16:41,860 --> 00:16:44,820 So the first step then, what we ask in recovery, 412 00:16:44,820 --> 00:16:46,260 is to take stock. 413 00:16:46,260 --> 00:16:47,500 What do we mean with this? 414 00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:49,700 It's really doing an audit of yourself. 415 00:16:49,700 --> 00:16:52,180 Because if you imagine that you are a shopkeeper, 416 00:16:52,180 --> 00:16:56,060 you have a shop, I'm sure you would do an audit once a quarter, 417 00:16:56,060 --> 00:16:57,900 once a year, or maybe every day you 418 00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:00,060 will count your inventory and do an audit 419 00:17:00,060 --> 00:17:01,300 so you know what you have. 420 00:17:01,300 --> 00:17:05,340 But how often do we actually stop and pause as human beings 421 00:17:05,340 --> 00:17:08,300 and take an honest, deep look at ourself? 422 00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:11,540 That is what we need to do when we come into a recovery program. 423 00:17:11,540 --> 00:17:13,780 And it's about really taking that down 424 00:17:13,780 --> 00:17:16,100 on a pen and paper or a spreadsheet. 425 00:17:16,100 --> 00:17:18,020 And we do that there with a sponsor. 426 00:17:18,020 --> 00:17:22,180 And you can do it with a friend or a mentor or someone who you trust. 427 00:17:22,180 --> 00:17:24,420 You can sit down there and do this audit. 428 00:17:24,420 --> 00:17:26,140 So in my case, I had to write down 429 00:17:26,140 --> 00:17:27,420 that I had an alcohol problem. 430 00:17:27,420 --> 00:17:28,580 I had gained weight. 431 00:17:28,580 --> 00:17:30,980 I had lost all my healthy habits. 432 00:17:30,980 --> 00:17:32,940 I had relationships that were broken. 433 00:17:32,940 --> 00:17:36,420 I did not have a good relationship with my sister at the time. 434 00:17:36,420 --> 00:17:39,100 I had some credit card debt that was lying there 435 00:17:39,100 --> 00:17:41,260 that I was trying to ignore. 436 00:17:41,260 --> 00:17:44,620 There was issues, and I had to get it all down. 437 00:17:44,620 --> 00:17:46,820 So that's the first step. 438 00:17:46,820 --> 00:17:48,620 What's the second step? 439 00:17:48,620 --> 00:17:52,420 The second step is then once you have the issues in one line, 440 00:17:52,420 --> 00:17:56,100 you look at who can you ask for help for every single line. 441 00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:58,940 And it's about writing down who can you take this to. 442 00:17:58,940 --> 00:18:01,020 Is it a coach, a mentor, a sponsor? 443 00:18:01,020 --> 00:18:03,820 Is it a friend, a colleague, your boss? 444 00:18:03,820 --> 00:18:07,140 Is it perhaps a therapist, a psychologist? 445 00:18:07,140 --> 00:18:10,620 Is there an anonymous program where you can take this too? 446 00:18:10,620 --> 00:18:12,340 That's the second step. 447 00:18:12,340 --> 00:18:14,220 And then the third step, 448 00:18:14,220 --> 00:18:15,820 and I put this one as the third step 449 00:18:15,820 --> 00:18:19,300 because I realized that it's so important to get healthy. 450 00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:21,380 So it's getting healthy at the third step. 451 00:18:21,380 --> 00:18:24,620 And so on that list, then prioritize the things 452 00:18:24,620 --> 00:18:27,020 that is related to your physical health, 453 00:18:27,020 --> 00:18:29,380 mental health, and emotional health, 454 00:18:29,380 --> 00:18:31,740 and go and ask for help for those first. 455 00:18:31,740 --> 00:18:32,740 And that's what I did. 456 00:18:32,740 --> 00:18:36,580 So I got someone who was a life coach, fitness coach, 457 00:18:36,580 --> 00:18:40,140 who can help me get some wearable devices, 458 00:18:40,140 --> 00:18:43,940 give me a basic training plan where I just started to walk. 459 00:18:43,940 --> 00:18:47,260 Nutritionist to help me with proper diet again. 460 00:18:47,260 --> 00:18:48,900 Getting those small wins. 461 00:18:48,900 --> 00:18:52,060 So getting really healthy is the third step, 462 00:18:52,060 --> 00:18:54,140 and I recommend that to everyone. 463 00:18:54,140 --> 00:18:57,900 And just staying on the getting healthy step for a second, 464 00:18:57,900 --> 00:19:00,860 I think you alluded to the fact that kind of physical health 465 00:19:00,860 --> 00:19:03,060 and mental health are intertwined, 466 00:19:03,060 --> 00:19:05,860 or there's a synergistic relationship. 467 00:19:05,860 --> 00:19:06,980 Did you find that as well, 468 00:19:06,980 --> 00:19:11,100 that did going for a run make you feel mentally more stable 469 00:19:11,100 --> 00:19:12,740 as well along your recovery? 470 00:19:12,740 --> 00:19:13,700 Yes, absolutely. 471 00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:16,500 So what happened then when I went to see the doctors 472 00:19:16,500 --> 00:19:21,500 in May in 2018, I was given medication for anxiety and so on. 473 00:19:22,140 --> 00:19:23,980 And I took that medication, 474 00:19:23,980 --> 00:19:26,300 but I wanted to get rid of the medication. 475 00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:28,140 And with my fitness coach then, 476 00:19:28,140 --> 00:19:30,260 we developed also together with the doctors, 477 00:19:30,260 --> 00:19:33,660 a plan for me to taper off the medicine over three months. 478 00:19:33,660 --> 00:19:36,100 So the exercise was stepping up. 479 00:19:36,100 --> 00:19:38,020 I was walking longer, start jogging, 480 00:19:38,020 --> 00:19:39,500 start swimming and so on. 481 00:19:39,500 --> 00:19:40,620 And the medication went down. 482 00:19:40,620 --> 00:19:43,220 So it replaced actually the medication. 483 00:19:43,220 --> 00:19:47,340 So after three months, I was free from all these drugs, 484 00:19:47,340 --> 00:19:50,580 all antidepressants and all the kind of medicine 485 00:19:50,580 --> 00:19:51,620 that they gave me. 486 00:19:51,620 --> 00:19:54,740 And since then I'm relying on a healthy diet and exercise. 487 00:19:54,740 --> 00:19:58,540 And it really, really does a better job 488 00:19:58,540 --> 00:20:01,380 because I don't have the downsides of the medication. 489 00:20:01,380 --> 00:20:03,980 You know, you got rashes and all kinds of things 490 00:20:03,980 --> 00:20:05,140 what's happening. 491 00:20:05,140 --> 00:20:07,020 And when I took the medication, 492 00:20:07,020 --> 00:20:08,980 but when you eat well and you exercise 493 00:20:08,980 --> 00:20:10,380 and you also sleep well, 494 00:20:10,380 --> 00:20:12,260 and it's all goes in this circle. 495 00:20:12,260 --> 00:20:16,100 And I certainly don't need any medication 496 00:20:16,100 --> 00:20:17,100 for many years now. 497 00:20:17,100 --> 00:20:18,660 It's so important. 498 00:20:18,660 --> 00:20:22,220 I think the easy way out is to take medicine, 499 00:20:22,220 --> 00:20:24,980 but maybe the better way is to do it 500 00:20:24,980 --> 00:20:27,260 through your lifestyle and exercise. 501 00:20:27,260 --> 00:20:30,300 And didn't you refer to exercise as the happy pill 502 00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:32,020 or something? Yes. 503 00:20:32,020 --> 00:20:34,820 Yes, I call it the natural happy pill indeed. 504 00:20:34,820 --> 00:20:36,460 And I'm so glad again, 505 00:20:36,460 --> 00:20:39,140 because I already then had the habit of asking for help. 506 00:20:39,140 --> 00:20:41,500 So I asked the doctor, how can I taper off this? 507 00:20:41,500 --> 00:20:42,860 And then I asked my fitness coach. 508 00:20:42,860 --> 00:20:45,300 And I took a little bit advice of both of them 509 00:20:45,300 --> 00:20:49,140 and set up this goal of three months plan to be drug free. 510 00:20:49,140 --> 00:20:50,140 And it really worked. 511 00:20:50,140 --> 00:20:52,580 It really worked because you hear people otherwise 512 00:20:52,580 --> 00:20:54,740 becoming addicted to the medication and so on. 513 00:20:54,740 --> 00:20:55,980 And that's not what I wanted. 514 00:20:55,980 --> 00:20:59,140 I wanted to be addicted to eating well, 515 00:20:59,140 --> 00:21:01,820 sleeping well and to exercise. 516 00:21:01,820 --> 00:21:03,660 Yeah. So what's the fourth step? 517 00:21:03,660 --> 00:21:06,260 The fourth step is nurturing healthy relationships. 518 00:21:06,260 --> 00:21:08,220 And this can be a painful one, 519 00:21:08,220 --> 00:21:10,180 because in the first step we've done that audit, 520 00:21:10,180 --> 00:21:13,420 we have to write down all the people who we have harmed, 521 00:21:13,420 --> 00:21:16,660 all the people who we might have said something bad to, 522 00:21:16,660 --> 00:21:19,220 or also the people who have harmed you. 523 00:21:19,220 --> 00:21:21,660 So if you're walking around thinking about 524 00:21:21,660 --> 00:21:24,900 some relationships with pain, we have to write this down. 525 00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:26,620 And I did this with my sponsor. 526 00:21:26,620 --> 00:21:29,380 And I was asked to even go through all the way back 527 00:21:29,380 --> 00:21:32,860 from my childhood, I had to dig out all the photo albums, 528 00:21:32,860 --> 00:21:35,060 all the pictures I could from my childhood, 529 00:21:35,060 --> 00:21:37,460 go through them one by one and look at the people 530 00:21:37,460 --> 00:21:39,460 on the photos and thinking about them. 531 00:21:39,460 --> 00:21:42,420 Had I said something 30, 40 years ago to them 532 00:21:42,420 --> 00:21:43,820 that might not have been right, 533 00:21:43,820 --> 00:21:45,620 have they done some harm to me? 534 00:21:45,620 --> 00:21:48,100 And then I went through the high school photos. 535 00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:49,180 I remember that. 536 00:21:49,180 --> 00:21:52,180 And I then went through all the jobs I worked in. 537 00:21:52,180 --> 00:21:54,740 And I was thinking through all the colleagues I had 538 00:21:54,740 --> 00:21:55,980 and made this list. 539 00:21:55,980 --> 00:21:58,820 And it was about 60, 70 names in the end. 540 00:21:58,820 --> 00:22:02,420 I heard others who had names of up to 400 people here 541 00:22:02,420 --> 00:22:04,140 of people they had harmed. 542 00:22:04,140 --> 00:22:05,980 It can be something very small. 543 00:22:05,980 --> 00:22:08,180 It can be something like you said something 544 00:22:08,180 --> 00:22:09,980 to your neighbor 15 years ago, 545 00:22:09,980 --> 00:22:11,940 or maybe there was a small conflict 546 00:22:11,940 --> 00:22:14,460 and you said something, but then you're walking around. 547 00:22:14,460 --> 00:22:16,540 When you see them, you're thinking about that incident. 548 00:22:16,540 --> 00:22:18,100 So you're carrying that around. 549 00:22:18,100 --> 00:22:20,900 So what we had to do then in this fourth step 550 00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:22,580 was to clean this list up. 551 00:22:22,580 --> 00:22:25,500 You're just starting with the five, six most important, 552 00:22:25,500 --> 00:22:30,180 which is perhaps your parents and your closest relatives. 553 00:22:30,180 --> 00:22:32,980 And then with a sponsor, you prepare an action 554 00:22:32,980 --> 00:22:35,460 to go back and make amends and apologize 555 00:22:35,460 --> 00:22:38,180 for the actions you did, unless you harmed them. 556 00:22:38,180 --> 00:22:40,620 And if there's someone who is not alive anymore 557 00:22:40,620 --> 00:22:43,060 and you write an apology letter to them, 558 00:22:43,060 --> 00:22:46,020 you pray on it, and then perhaps you burn that letter 559 00:22:46,020 --> 00:22:48,820 or you throw it away, but at least you do some ceremony 560 00:22:48,820 --> 00:22:51,740 for every single one, you clean up that past. 561 00:22:51,740 --> 00:22:53,340 And that is a thorough process 562 00:22:53,340 --> 00:22:55,220 that can take a few months to do. 563 00:22:55,220 --> 00:22:58,180 And I still today now five years into recovery, 564 00:22:58,180 --> 00:23:01,540 sometimes someone pop up, maybe I remember, 565 00:23:01,540 --> 00:23:04,820 oh, eight years ago, I said something to that colleague, 566 00:23:04,820 --> 00:23:08,540 then I dig that out and I actually made one amend 567 00:23:08,540 --> 00:23:12,260 last week to someone, which was eight years ago. 568 00:23:12,260 --> 00:23:15,940 And most of the time they'd be very, very surprised 569 00:23:15,940 --> 00:23:17,580 and very positive. 570 00:23:17,580 --> 00:23:20,460 This was a particular job I resigned from 571 00:23:20,460 --> 00:23:22,100 about eight years ago. 572 00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:23,580 And when I was thinking through it now, 573 00:23:23,580 --> 00:23:26,180 it came up in my head, I realized that I didn't leave 574 00:23:26,180 --> 00:23:28,500 on the best note, I was not performing my best. 575 00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:31,300 I blamed the company for the performance, 576 00:23:31,300 --> 00:23:33,060 I blamed everything but myself. 577 00:23:33,060 --> 00:23:35,180 And I now went back and I said, sorry, 578 00:23:35,180 --> 00:23:37,660 I didn't show up at my very best. 579 00:23:37,660 --> 00:23:40,860 And his response was, oh, I always look for the best 580 00:23:40,860 --> 00:23:43,300 in everyone, I thought there was some difficulties 581 00:23:43,300 --> 00:23:46,020 going through in your life, thank you for your note, 582 00:23:46,020 --> 00:23:48,380 let's catch up for a coffee next time you're in town. 583 00:23:48,380 --> 00:23:50,700 So now I have a positive feeling when I think about 584 00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:54,100 that job, that relationship, and that is what we do here 585 00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:56,220 in the Four Step, really going back to that. 586 00:23:56,220 --> 00:23:59,180 And I can just share also that I went back and made amends 587 00:23:59,180 --> 00:24:02,140 to my sister over an incident a few years earlier 588 00:24:02,140 --> 00:24:04,300 when I stormed off the lunch table, 589 00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:06,740 because she ordered a Coca-Cola to my son, 590 00:24:06,740 --> 00:24:08,660 who was a few years old at the time, 591 00:24:08,660 --> 00:24:10,340 and I didn't think he should have it. 592 00:24:10,340 --> 00:24:14,140 But at that time, I didn't know how to slow down 593 00:24:14,140 --> 00:24:15,260 and take it in a good way. 594 00:24:15,260 --> 00:24:17,220 So I stormed off, I grabbed him from the table, 595 00:24:17,220 --> 00:24:20,260 and then I didn't speak to her for a year or two years 596 00:24:20,260 --> 00:24:21,180 after that. 597 00:24:21,180 --> 00:24:23,580 And I had to go back and make amends for this incident. 598 00:24:23,580 --> 00:24:26,700 And of course, she laughed it off and gave me a hug 599 00:24:26,700 --> 00:24:27,940 and everything was good. 600 00:24:27,940 --> 00:24:30,540 And that means that that incident sort of disappeared 601 00:24:30,540 --> 00:24:31,980 from my life as a pain. 602 00:24:31,980 --> 00:24:33,420 And I can see my sister again, 603 00:24:33,420 --> 00:24:35,340 we have a good relationship again. 604 00:24:35,340 --> 00:24:37,980 So that is what I encourage everyone here on this step 605 00:24:37,980 --> 00:24:40,220 to clean up your past and make sure 606 00:24:40,220 --> 00:24:42,220 that you have no baggage with you. 607 00:24:42,220 --> 00:24:45,100 It reminds me that when a person is sick 608 00:24:45,100 --> 00:24:48,020 or they're going through something like addiction, 609 00:24:48,020 --> 00:24:49,820 it not only impacts themselves, 610 00:24:49,820 --> 00:24:52,100 but it impacts everyone around them. 611 00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:55,020 And the fact that you have to think, 612 00:24:55,020 --> 00:24:56,900 what was I saying to other people 613 00:24:56,900 --> 00:24:58,540 that probably wasn't right? 614 00:24:58,540 --> 00:25:01,820 And you're going through the whole process 615 00:25:01,820 --> 00:25:04,900 of going and making the amends and making things right, 616 00:25:04,900 --> 00:25:07,020 not only for you, but for them as well. 617 00:25:07,020 --> 00:25:10,540 And I think that's such a beautiful step 618 00:25:10,540 --> 00:25:13,300 and a necessary step to kind of acknowledge, 619 00:25:14,500 --> 00:25:17,060 maybe things were misunderstood, 620 00:25:17,060 --> 00:25:19,140 maybe I was just a jerk 621 00:25:19,140 --> 00:25:21,100 because of certain things going on in my life. 622 00:25:21,100 --> 00:25:25,100 It's a very, very meaningful step, I think. 623 00:25:25,100 --> 00:25:27,020 So what's the last step? 624 00:25:27,020 --> 00:25:29,780 Yeah, so the last step is once you then cleared your baggage, 625 00:25:29,780 --> 00:25:31,700 so you're feeling better about yourself 626 00:25:31,700 --> 00:25:32,780 and you're on the right path, 627 00:25:32,780 --> 00:25:34,820 then it's really going deep inside yourself 628 00:25:34,820 --> 00:25:36,580 and locating your purpose. 629 00:25:36,580 --> 00:25:38,540 And what I mean with this, 630 00:25:38,540 --> 00:25:40,860 and especially because the book I wrote also 631 00:25:40,860 --> 00:25:43,540 and the interviews I did was mainly with entrepreneurs 632 00:25:43,540 --> 00:25:44,660 and senior executives. 633 00:25:44,660 --> 00:25:47,660 And for many of us, it's taking a step back 634 00:25:47,660 --> 00:25:49,660 and deflating the ego. 635 00:25:49,660 --> 00:25:53,420 It's looking at, am I part of something bigger? 636 00:25:53,420 --> 00:25:54,260 Am I God? 637 00:25:54,260 --> 00:25:57,340 Is it me who's running the show at all times? 638 00:25:57,340 --> 00:26:00,140 Many times here, what I found in the recovery program 639 00:26:00,140 --> 00:26:02,180 is that the more senior position, 640 00:26:02,180 --> 00:26:03,660 the higher the payroll, 641 00:26:03,660 --> 00:26:05,020 the more perks they would have 642 00:26:05,020 --> 00:26:06,740 and the bigger the ego would be. 643 00:26:06,740 --> 00:26:08,580 And the bigger the crash and the bigger 644 00:26:08,580 --> 00:26:12,620 they therefore need to dig in order to find their purpose. 645 00:26:12,620 --> 00:26:15,660 And many times here, the term God comes up 646 00:26:15,660 --> 00:26:18,220 and that makes people run away and get scared. 647 00:26:18,220 --> 00:26:21,740 And I want to say that we never talk about any religions 648 00:26:21,740 --> 00:26:23,300 in any recovery programs. 649 00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:25,780 It's only about spirituality 650 00:26:25,780 --> 00:26:29,020 and perhaps just admitting that we are part of something bigger 651 00:26:29,020 --> 00:26:29,980 than ourselves. 652 00:26:29,980 --> 00:26:31,820 And that is the healthy step 653 00:26:31,820 --> 00:26:34,140 where we can then start from there 654 00:26:34,140 --> 00:26:35,820 and be of service to other people, 655 00:26:35,820 --> 00:26:37,700 be grateful for what we have. 656 00:26:37,700 --> 00:26:39,540 And then the circle keeps going back, 657 00:26:39,540 --> 00:26:40,940 are we helping other people? 658 00:26:42,020 --> 00:26:43,220 Nice. 659 00:26:43,220 --> 00:26:47,180 There's a quote by Mark Twain that I love. 660 00:26:47,180 --> 00:26:48,260 And it says, 661 00:26:48,260 --> 00:26:50,020 the two most important days in your life 662 00:26:50,020 --> 00:26:52,740 are the day you're born and the day you find out why. 663 00:26:52,740 --> 00:26:55,820 So do you feel like you found out your why? 664 00:26:55,820 --> 00:26:57,060 Yes, I feel so. 665 00:26:57,060 --> 00:27:00,180 I mean, having gone through the pains I have 666 00:27:00,180 --> 00:27:03,780 and the journey I went through to now help others 667 00:27:03,780 --> 00:27:06,340 is really what gives me the greatest joy 668 00:27:06,340 --> 00:27:08,300 and even give me goosebumps. 669 00:27:08,300 --> 00:27:10,060 In fact, I went for a swim session 670 00:27:10,060 --> 00:27:11,820 with my academy this morning. 671 00:27:11,820 --> 00:27:14,500 And there was one gentleman who's just come into recovery 672 00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:16,140 who was there today. 673 00:27:16,140 --> 00:27:17,340 We shared a few words 674 00:27:17,340 --> 00:27:20,460 and I'm gonna meet him up on Sunday over coffee. 675 00:27:20,460 --> 00:27:23,060 He's only four days into his recovery journey. 676 00:27:23,060 --> 00:27:25,300 And he has a lot to learn from me. 677 00:27:25,300 --> 00:27:27,020 And I can share what I've gone through 678 00:27:27,020 --> 00:27:28,980 the last five and a half years. 679 00:27:28,980 --> 00:27:31,380 And that really gives me so much hope. 680 00:27:31,380 --> 00:27:33,340 And I just want and wish 681 00:27:33,340 --> 00:27:35,260 for everyone who's going through difficult times 682 00:27:35,260 --> 00:27:36,580 that don't go through it alone, 683 00:27:36,580 --> 00:27:39,060 but just reach out and ask for help. 684 00:27:39,060 --> 00:27:40,340 Yeah, so important. 685 00:27:40,340 --> 00:27:41,660 Thanks for sharing the five steps. 686 00:27:41,660 --> 00:27:45,180 I think they're very clear and very actionable as well. 687 00:27:45,180 --> 00:27:47,380 And they're, like I said, they're outlined in your book 688 00:27:47,380 --> 00:27:51,260 with lots of examples and tips and kind of anecdotal stories. 689 00:27:51,260 --> 00:27:53,060 So if someone wants to learn more about it, 690 00:27:53,060 --> 00:27:55,100 the book has all the information there 691 00:27:55,100 --> 00:27:58,300 and resources, I think, as well for people. 692 00:27:58,300 --> 00:28:00,460 And one thing I wanted to share as well 693 00:28:00,460 --> 00:28:03,060 is because you and I, you know, we know each other. 694 00:28:03,060 --> 00:28:06,620 And one thing I was really curious about 695 00:28:06,620 --> 00:28:09,580 is because you had talked about the V-shape recovery. 696 00:28:09,580 --> 00:28:13,100 Like you hear the classic story of like people hit rock bottom 697 00:28:13,100 --> 00:28:14,860 and then they climb out of it. 698 00:28:14,860 --> 00:28:17,300 Or, you know, they, and it doesn't have to do 699 00:28:17,300 --> 00:28:19,380 only with addiction recovery. 700 00:28:19,380 --> 00:28:21,700 It's, you know, people find themselves obese 701 00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:23,100 and then they make a commitment, 702 00:28:23,100 --> 00:28:24,900 I'm going to lose 40 kg or something. 703 00:28:24,900 --> 00:28:27,500 And they achieve this monumental thing. 704 00:28:27,500 --> 00:28:29,980 And then they find it hard to maintain. 705 00:28:29,980 --> 00:28:33,380 And you've been sober now for five years or over five years. 706 00:28:33,380 --> 00:28:36,140 And I remember, you know, a few months ago, 707 00:28:36,140 --> 00:28:39,660 we were at an event and it was like a networking event. 708 00:28:39,660 --> 00:28:43,300 It was open bar and we were all drinking, including me. 709 00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:46,180 And, you know, you were drinking a glass of water 710 00:28:46,180 --> 00:28:49,540 and socializing and hanging out and talking. 711 00:28:49,540 --> 00:28:53,460 But I sensed in that situation that you were really, 712 00:28:53,460 --> 00:28:54,860 you were making a choice. 713 00:28:54,860 --> 00:28:57,580 Even today, you're still making a choice to drink water 714 00:28:57,580 --> 00:28:58,740 when there's an open bar. 715 00:28:58,740 --> 00:29:02,180 And what's the difference in like the motivation 716 00:29:02,180 --> 00:29:06,220 between getting sober or, you know, making a huge change 717 00:29:06,220 --> 00:29:09,060 when you're hitting rock bottom versus five years later, 718 00:29:09,060 --> 00:29:11,660 you make that little decision every day? 719 00:29:11,660 --> 00:29:12,580 Or is it a big decision? 720 00:29:12,580 --> 00:29:14,740 Like, what's the difference in the motivation? 721 00:29:14,740 --> 00:29:19,340 Yeah, so having had issues with addiction in the past 722 00:29:19,340 --> 00:29:23,700 and alcohol addiction, for me, it means one drink 723 00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:26,980 would not be enough and a thousand would be not enough either. 724 00:29:26,980 --> 00:29:28,780 You know, it would never stop. 725 00:29:28,780 --> 00:29:30,420 So the circle will start again. 726 00:29:30,420 --> 00:29:31,860 So I cannot have one drink. 727 00:29:31,860 --> 00:29:36,540 And that's why I had to surrender to the addiction in itself 728 00:29:36,540 --> 00:29:40,020 in the recovery program and just live a life without it. 729 00:29:40,020 --> 00:29:43,180 And sometimes it's easier to not have anything 730 00:29:43,180 --> 00:29:44,780 rather than trying to control it. 731 00:29:44,780 --> 00:29:48,580 I tried to control it many times and it just didn't work. 732 00:29:48,580 --> 00:29:50,340 It would be the same with many addictions. 733 00:29:50,340 --> 00:29:53,140 You see smokers who quit and then they start again, 734 00:29:53,140 --> 00:29:56,380 but it doesn't work to have one cigarette every three days 735 00:29:56,380 --> 00:29:57,340 or something like that. 736 00:29:57,340 --> 00:29:59,620 So I think addictions are like that. 737 00:29:59,620 --> 00:30:03,620 And once I then got a taste for life without addiction, 738 00:30:03,620 --> 00:30:06,260 running the life, then I wanted more of that. 739 00:30:06,260 --> 00:30:09,980 And we say in recovery, you get a life beyond your wild 740 00:30:09,980 --> 00:30:11,180 wildest dreams. 741 00:30:11,180 --> 00:30:15,540 And that is really, really what we're talking about in recovery. 742 00:30:15,540 --> 00:30:17,740 Why beyond your wildest dreams? 743 00:30:17,740 --> 00:30:20,700 Because perhaps all of us can picture a big house, 744 00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:23,300 we can picture a Ferrari, all these kind of things 745 00:30:23,300 --> 00:30:26,380 that we dream about and we think about and we can put down. 746 00:30:26,380 --> 00:30:30,340 But the life we get by giving up these kind of addictions 747 00:30:30,340 --> 00:30:33,540 and when we're patching it together by gratitude 748 00:30:33,540 --> 00:30:35,940 and purpose and so on is something 749 00:30:35,940 --> 00:30:37,140 that we cannot imagine. 750 00:30:37,140 --> 00:30:39,380 The life I have now is not something 751 00:30:39,380 --> 00:30:41,060 that I could picture. 752 00:30:41,060 --> 00:30:43,380 It's really beyond my wildest dreams. 753 00:30:43,380 --> 00:30:45,540 My back office is in Perkett. 754 00:30:45,540 --> 00:30:48,180 Before I might have had it on my bucket list or wish list, 755 00:30:48,180 --> 00:30:49,380 but it happened. 756 00:30:49,380 --> 00:30:52,180 And not only I rent my apartment anymore, 757 00:30:52,180 --> 00:30:53,980 which I always done, I own it. 758 00:30:53,980 --> 00:30:55,500 I live here and I train. 759 00:30:55,500 --> 00:30:56,860 I put my training first. 760 00:30:56,860 --> 00:30:59,820 I'm fully connected with the people I love 761 00:30:59,820 --> 00:31:01,300 and we are supporting each other. 762 00:31:01,300 --> 00:31:04,140 Everyone knows that they can talk to me about everything. 763 00:31:04,140 --> 00:31:06,100 Therefore people feel safe coming, 764 00:31:06,100 --> 00:31:07,500 having conversations with me. 765 00:31:07,500 --> 00:31:09,860 And it used to be complete opposite. 766 00:31:09,860 --> 00:31:13,180 So it's only by me sharing my biggest secrets 767 00:31:13,180 --> 00:31:17,340 and the dark side of me that this life became possible. 768 00:31:17,340 --> 00:31:19,980 And therefore, when other people are drinking, 769 00:31:19,980 --> 00:31:20,820 it doesn't bother me. 770 00:31:20,820 --> 00:31:22,180 I hardly reflect on it. 771 00:31:22,180 --> 00:31:25,300 And also even if I go to bars or parties, 772 00:31:25,300 --> 00:31:28,140 it's rare I'm out that late as when I saw you, 773 00:31:28,140 --> 00:31:29,540 but it was a networking function, 774 00:31:29,540 --> 00:31:31,260 which I really enjoyed as well. 775 00:31:31,260 --> 00:31:32,620 And I'm not the network. 776 00:31:32,620 --> 00:31:33,460 I'm an introvert. 777 00:31:33,460 --> 00:31:35,540 So normally I would need to medicate myself 778 00:31:35,540 --> 00:31:37,140 to feel comfortable. 779 00:31:37,140 --> 00:31:38,340 But that was an illusion. 780 00:31:38,340 --> 00:31:39,660 That's what I fooled myself 781 00:31:39,660 --> 00:31:41,380 because I was putting on a show 782 00:31:41,380 --> 00:31:43,100 and to put on that show I had to drink. 783 00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:45,500 But now I can go there and be myself. 784 00:31:45,500 --> 00:31:47,020 And that's the big difference. 785 00:31:47,020 --> 00:31:48,580 That's such a beautiful thing. 786 00:31:48,580 --> 00:31:49,540 Yeah, it's you. 787 00:31:49,540 --> 00:31:50,380 It's being you. 788 00:31:50,380 --> 00:31:52,740 And that's something I think we all strive for. 789 00:31:52,740 --> 00:31:54,820 And something you just said reminded me 790 00:31:54,820 --> 00:31:57,860 of gratitude as well, because something, 791 00:31:57,860 --> 00:32:01,180 I mean, I haven't struggled with addiction per se, 792 00:32:01,180 --> 00:32:04,460 but I've had anxiety, I've had burnout 793 00:32:04,460 --> 00:32:07,500 that led to a lot of changes in my life as well. 794 00:32:07,500 --> 00:32:10,060 And I read something one time that really inspired me 795 00:32:10,060 --> 00:32:12,780 and it said, what you're living today 796 00:32:12,780 --> 00:32:15,180 is the future you once dreamt of. 797 00:32:15,180 --> 00:32:17,700 And if you think about, like you said, 798 00:32:17,700 --> 00:32:19,740 a couple of years ago, you never would have imagined 799 00:32:19,740 --> 00:32:22,740 you have a team at Phuket, you have all of this together 800 00:32:22,740 --> 00:32:24,980 and just be grateful that, 801 00:32:24,980 --> 00:32:28,460 even if things could always be better in our lives, right? 802 00:32:28,460 --> 00:32:30,300 But what we have right now 803 00:32:30,300 --> 00:32:32,660 is something we thought never possible 804 00:32:32,660 --> 00:32:33,900 five years ago or something. 805 00:32:33,900 --> 00:32:37,060 And I think that's something I take away as, 806 00:32:37,060 --> 00:32:39,380 I take stock of almost every day now. 807 00:32:39,380 --> 00:32:42,660 Yeah, and this is why we need to share these stories 808 00:32:42,660 --> 00:32:46,420 and we need to encourage people to break the silence, 809 00:32:46,420 --> 00:32:48,740 no matter what it is they have on their mind 810 00:32:48,740 --> 00:32:50,660 or what issues they're going through. 811 00:32:50,660 --> 00:32:52,340 The thing is that they're not the first one. 812 00:32:52,340 --> 00:32:54,580 They're not the first one to go through this. 813 00:32:54,580 --> 00:32:57,140 But somehow in our mind, we believe that. 814 00:32:57,140 --> 00:32:59,780 But as we say again, to my fifth step 815 00:32:59,780 --> 00:33:02,340 about finding your purpose, deflating the ego, 816 00:33:02,340 --> 00:33:05,420 we need to know and understand that we are not that special. 817 00:33:05,420 --> 00:33:07,900 And once we can accept that we are not the unique, 818 00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:10,100 the chosen one in this universe, 819 00:33:10,100 --> 00:33:12,940 then we open up the doors to also learn from others 820 00:33:12,940 --> 00:33:14,980 who's been there before, right? 821 00:33:14,980 --> 00:33:17,100 Absolutely, absolutely. 822 00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:19,820 You are the managing director of EGN. 823 00:33:19,820 --> 00:33:23,100 And so this is work that is closely aligned 824 00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:24,900 to also your purpose, I believe. 825 00:33:24,900 --> 00:33:27,180 It's not just a job that you're doing 826 00:33:27,180 --> 00:33:29,940 because it's also providing a platform, 827 00:33:29,940 --> 00:33:34,820 I think, for a lot of executives to share vulnerably. 828 00:33:34,820 --> 00:33:37,020 Tell us a little bit about EGN as well. 829 00:33:37,020 --> 00:33:39,820 Yeah, so EGN is a peer network 830 00:33:39,820 --> 00:33:42,660 where we organize confidential peer group meetings 831 00:33:42,660 --> 00:33:45,020 where you can discuss your work-related challenges. 832 00:33:45,020 --> 00:33:47,740 So our job is to help administrate this. 833 00:33:47,740 --> 00:33:51,060 We have certified facilitators to run the meetings 834 00:33:51,060 --> 00:33:53,300 where you then go up and stand in front of the group 835 00:33:53,300 --> 00:33:55,060 and present your work-related challenges 836 00:33:55,060 --> 00:33:57,260 for the group to help you solve them. 837 00:33:57,260 --> 00:34:00,020 And that's a way we network and build real, 838 00:34:00,020 --> 00:34:01,260 authentic relationships, 839 00:34:01,260 --> 00:34:03,980 which is then formed by being vulnerable. 840 00:34:03,980 --> 00:34:06,660 So indeed, it's very linked to my purpose. 841 00:34:06,660 --> 00:34:09,700 And I can just see on the EGN chat groups today we have, 842 00:34:09,700 --> 00:34:12,500 and I see even now more and more Singaporeans 843 00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:15,900 are also being so grateful and making positive comments. 844 00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:18,020 I see, you know, they're talking about this today. 845 00:34:18,020 --> 00:34:21,060 And because there was an article in the straight times 846 00:34:21,060 --> 00:34:23,300 that Singapore government will focus more 847 00:34:23,300 --> 00:34:26,300 on the mental health and they understand it's a big issue 848 00:34:26,300 --> 00:34:27,700 and they want to do more effort. 849 00:34:27,700 --> 00:34:30,740 And everyone is just, they're just sharing how amazed they are 850 00:34:30,740 --> 00:34:35,140 the way EGN has expanded, but also the conversations, 851 00:34:35,140 --> 00:34:37,940 the fact that they really are there helping each other 852 00:34:37,940 --> 00:34:39,460 and being vulnerable. 853 00:34:39,460 --> 00:34:43,100 And while it sits quite deeply in us as foreigners, 854 00:34:43,100 --> 00:34:45,060 Westerners perhaps to share, 855 00:34:45,060 --> 00:34:47,940 it even sits deeper in locals, for example, Asians 856 00:34:47,940 --> 00:34:49,300 and also Singaporeans. 857 00:34:49,300 --> 00:34:51,420 But now since we are leading the way, 858 00:34:51,420 --> 00:34:54,700 I have also constant conversations with Singaporeans 859 00:34:54,700 --> 00:34:57,380 and encouraging them and helping them also to seek help 860 00:34:57,380 --> 00:34:59,820 and reach out when they have issues. 861 00:34:59,820 --> 00:35:01,820 There's so many cultural nuances 862 00:35:01,820 --> 00:35:03,660 when it comes to mental health, right? 863 00:35:03,660 --> 00:35:05,420 And you and I being Westerners, 864 00:35:05,420 --> 00:35:07,780 we're more comfortable, I think, being vulnerable, 865 00:35:07,780 --> 00:35:11,340 but it's certainly something that I think Eastern cultures 866 00:35:11,340 --> 00:35:14,020 like Singaporeans can also benefit from. 867 00:35:14,020 --> 00:35:16,260 Hopefully it'll become more widespread as well. 868 00:35:16,260 --> 00:35:17,860 EGN is one forum. 869 00:35:17,860 --> 00:35:20,980 Do you think like corporations are doing enough? 870 00:35:20,980 --> 00:35:23,180 Companies are kind of supporting the mental health? 871 00:35:23,180 --> 00:35:25,380 Like it just feels like sometimes this is something 872 00:35:25,380 --> 00:35:27,420 that somebody has to like go out 873 00:35:27,420 --> 00:35:29,220 and seek their own resources. 874 00:35:29,220 --> 00:35:31,220 Do you think companies should be doing more 875 00:35:31,220 --> 00:35:32,660 for their executives? 876 00:35:32,660 --> 00:35:35,500 Yeah, so sadly this has gone backwards. 877 00:35:35,500 --> 00:35:36,980 Since I joined EGN, 878 00:35:36,980 --> 00:35:38,860 if I'm looking back a couple of years ago, 879 00:35:38,860 --> 00:35:42,460 most executives in Singapore had a budget 880 00:35:42,460 --> 00:35:43,740 with memberships and so on. 881 00:35:43,740 --> 00:35:46,420 They could access that budget and join EGN. 882 00:35:46,420 --> 00:35:48,340 And this is still the case in Europe. 883 00:35:48,340 --> 00:35:51,620 About 99% of all memberships of EGN 884 00:35:51,620 --> 00:35:53,860 is paid by the company in Europe. 885 00:35:53,860 --> 00:35:55,860 In Singapore now this have kept changing 886 00:35:55,860 --> 00:35:58,540 and now a vast majority is paid by the individuals 887 00:35:58,540 --> 00:36:01,100 who have to take this out of their own pocket. 888 00:36:01,100 --> 00:36:04,420 Which means that clearly the HR departments 889 00:36:04,420 --> 00:36:07,140 and the head of companies in Asia is saying 890 00:36:07,140 --> 00:36:09,060 that we don't support your mental health. 891 00:36:09,060 --> 00:36:11,300 We don't support your emotional wellbeing. 892 00:36:11,300 --> 00:36:12,820 We don't wanna grow you. 893 00:36:12,820 --> 00:36:14,540 We don't want you to go out the network 894 00:36:14,540 --> 00:36:16,260 and feel good about yourself. 895 00:36:16,260 --> 00:36:18,180 This is something you have to pay for yourself. 896 00:36:18,180 --> 00:36:20,340 That's at least the signal that I'm reading 897 00:36:20,340 --> 00:36:22,500 and I think is completely wrong. 898 00:36:22,500 --> 00:36:23,540 Maybe they are worried. 899 00:36:23,540 --> 00:36:25,300 Maybe these leaders are worried 900 00:36:25,300 --> 00:36:26,900 that if they go out and join this, 901 00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:29,540 that they will find another better opportunity. 902 00:36:29,540 --> 00:36:31,380 I don't know where exactly it sits, 903 00:36:31,380 --> 00:36:33,460 but it's a very sad development. 904 00:36:33,460 --> 00:36:36,060 And then when I see that many of the members, 905 00:36:36,060 --> 00:36:38,700 they pay for this themselves out of their own pocket, 906 00:36:38,700 --> 00:36:41,100 but then they're not in charge of the calendar. 907 00:36:41,100 --> 00:36:42,900 And then they're flown all around Asia 908 00:36:42,900 --> 00:36:44,500 and they miss the meetings. 909 00:36:44,500 --> 00:36:46,540 That is the biggest issue here. 910 00:36:46,540 --> 00:36:49,100 That we need to strategize our networking 911 00:36:49,100 --> 00:36:50,500 and relationship building. 912 00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:53,020 And HR has to play a role in this, 913 00:36:53,020 --> 00:36:55,340 but at the moment it's going the other way, 914 00:36:55,340 --> 00:36:58,740 which is a big issue I see, especially in Singapore. 915 00:36:58,740 --> 00:37:00,820 That's really interesting being based in Singapore. 916 00:37:00,820 --> 00:37:04,900 You hear about companies investing in wellness programs 917 00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:08,500 or maybe some activities, team building, 918 00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:10,220 where they're trying to address some of these issues, 919 00:37:10,220 --> 00:37:14,740 but they do seem to be directed towards the staff level 920 00:37:14,740 --> 00:37:18,980 or employee level, maybe not the executive level. 921 00:37:18,980 --> 00:37:21,700 And what you're saying is that it's as important, 922 00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:24,300 if not more important to also invest in the mental health 923 00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:27,460 of your executives, not just your frontline teams 924 00:37:27,460 --> 00:37:30,540 or kind of the office. 925 00:37:30,540 --> 00:37:31,700 Yes, I believe so. 926 00:37:31,700 --> 00:37:33,860 And vulnerability has to start on the top. 927 00:37:33,860 --> 00:37:36,100 So if you have a leader who's not feeling well, 928 00:37:36,100 --> 00:37:37,180 who's not vulnerable, 929 00:37:37,180 --> 00:37:40,220 who's not having honest conversation externally, 930 00:37:40,220 --> 00:37:42,540 this leader will be inside the company, 931 00:37:42,540 --> 00:37:45,900 not feeling well and leading in the wrong way. 932 00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:47,740 And that is what we are seeing now. 933 00:37:47,740 --> 00:37:49,940 And definitely the trend is going that this is, 934 00:37:49,940 --> 00:37:51,780 we're gonna get more of these leaders 935 00:37:51,780 --> 00:37:54,740 until we're able to do what Europe does so well, 936 00:37:54,740 --> 00:37:57,300 when this is clearly, clearly something 937 00:37:57,300 --> 00:38:00,180 that a senior executive has part of their package 938 00:38:00,180 --> 00:38:02,860 and it's paid by the company, these kinds of memberships, 939 00:38:02,860 --> 00:38:05,980 because why would you need an external organization? 940 00:38:05,980 --> 00:38:08,060 Well, we all need our safe spaces. 941 00:38:08,060 --> 00:38:10,700 And it can be mastermind groups, can be peer groups, 942 00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:11,860 can be any of these. 943 00:38:11,860 --> 00:38:14,260 But the challenge when you're a senior executive 944 00:38:14,260 --> 00:38:17,020 is that you don't have the time to put in to administrate it, 945 00:38:17,020 --> 00:38:20,140 to book it and to get 15, 20 senior executives 946 00:38:20,140 --> 00:38:21,860 to come in the venue at the same day, 947 00:38:21,860 --> 00:38:23,460 someone need to book it and so on. 948 00:38:23,460 --> 00:38:27,780 And that is all that these networks, including EDN does. 949 00:38:27,780 --> 00:38:30,580 And these are meetings that are so important 950 00:38:30,580 --> 00:38:31,420 for the executives. 951 00:38:31,420 --> 00:38:35,580 So yeah, this is a shout out to any HR leaders indeed, 952 00:38:35,580 --> 00:38:36,980 that they need to look after this. 953 00:38:36,980 --> 00:38:39,140 And I know that what the most of them say, 954 00:38:39,140 --> 00:38:41,420 oh, we run this internally, we do this internally, 955 00:38:41,420 --> 00:38:43,340 we have mentoring program internally. 956 00:38:43,340 --> 00:38:46,100 But what they don't understand is that the senior leaders 957 00:38:46,100 --> 00:38:48,660 will not share honestly and openly the challenges 958 00:38:48,660 --> 00:38:51,580 they are facing inside their company with their teams. 959 00:38:51,580 --> 00:38:52,420 They are at the top, 960 00:38:52,420 --> 00:38:54,900 they need to have these conversations externally. 961 00:38:54,900 --> 00:38:57,860 And we shouldn't have to wait until they be hospitalized 962 00:38:57,860 --> 00:39:00,700 and need to see psychologist and get medication. 963 00:39:00,700 --> 00:39:02,420 We can address this proactively 964 00:39:02,420 --> 00:39:05,420 by having these safe spaces for them. 965 00:39:05,420 --> 00:39:06,620 Absolutely. 966 00:39:06,620 --> 00:39:07,900 I mean, there's so many executives 967 00:39:07,900 --> 00:39:10,100 who would never share this internally 968 00:39:10,100 --> 00:39:13,980 because it could destroy your career basically, 969 00:39:13,980 --> 00:39:17,020 with politics and all types of gossip 970 00:39:17,020 --> 00:39:19,180 and stuff going on within companies. 971 00:39:19,180 --> 00:39:21,100 So they need to have a safe space as well. 972 00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:23,140 Yeah, I totally get that. 973 00:39:23,140 --> 00:39:27,660 So if you were to speak directly to a listener 974 00:39:27,660 --> 00:39:31,780 who's an executive having problems 975 00:39:31,780 --> 00:39:35,500 and maybe not reached out to anyone yet, 976 00:39:35,500 --> 00:39:38,060 if you could kind of talk directly to that person 977 00:39:38,060 --> 00:39:40,500 who's struggling, what would you say to them? 978 00:39:40,500 --> 00:39:43,100 Yeah, so it would depend on what the struggle is. 979 00:39:43,100 --> 00:39:46,500 If it's work-related, yeah, try to join a network 980 00:39:46,500 --> 00:39:49,180 or ask someone, a mentor for help 981 00:39:49,180 --> 00:39:51,100 or get a coach who can help you with it 982 00:39:51,100 --> 00:39:52,140 if it's work-related. 983 00:39:52,140 --> 00:39:54,140 But if it's really something more, 984 00:39:54,140 --> 00:39:57,740 if it is addiction or isolation or some of those feelings, 985 00:39:57,740 --> 00:39:59,500 then seek professional help. 986 00:39:59,500 --> 00:40:02,220 The beautiful thing these days after the pandemic 987 00:40:02,220 --> 00:40:05,500 is that you can see a therapist or psychologist online, 988 00:40:05,500 --> 00:40:06,860 you can book a session. 989 00:40:06,860 --> 00:40:08,860 No one need to find out. 990 00:40:08,860 --> 00:40:10,860 I understand that before it might be difficult 991 00:40:10,860 --> 00:40:12,540 because you worry if I go and see a doctor, 992 00:40:12,540 --> 00:40:14,940 it will be in my logs, people will see me, 993 00:40:14,940 --> 00:40:16,220 and then there will be gossip. 994 00:40:16,220 --> 00:40:18,980 I get that, but you don't have to worry about that. 995 00:40:18,980 --> 00:40:21,980 You can call, there's so many available online. 996 00:40:21,980 --> 00:40:23,620 And again, if it is an addiction, 997 00:40:23,620 --> 00:40:25,660 then it doesn't cost anything. 998 00:40:25,660 --> 00:40:29,860 All these 12-step programs are basically self-supporting 999 00:40:29,860 --> 00:40:31,420 and you can join any one of them. 1000 00:40:31,420 --> 00:40:33,740 And if you're talking about Singapore, 1001 00:40:33,740 --> 00:40:38,460 there are basically one in every part of the town. 1002 00:40:38,460 --> 00:40:39,980 You can just use wherever you live 1003 00:40:39,980 --> 00:40:42,220 and there will be something within one kilometer 1004 00:40:42,220 --> 00:40:44,060 from where you live. 1005 00:40:44,060 --> 00:40:45,820 And what's next for you, Nick? 1006 00:40:45,820 --> 00:40:48,900 What do you have on the horizon? 1007 00:40:48,900 --> 00:40:50,860 So I'm writing my second book 1008 00:40:50,860 --> 00:40:53,580 and it's basically about the power of vulnerability. 1009 00:40:53,580 --> 00:40:57,060 So I'm interviewing now executives and business owners 1010 00:40:57,060 --> 00:40:59,020 about the power of vulnerability. 1011 00:40:59,020 --> 00:41:01,540 So it's basically build on my first book 1012 00:41:01,540 --> 00:41:05,380 and by all the stories that basically also I'm coming back 1013 00:41:05,380 --> 00:41:08,260 to the people who I interviewed in the first book 1014 00:41:08,260 --> 00:41:10,180 to see where are they three years later. 1015 00:41:10,180 --> 00:41:13,420 And I can just mention that one of the ladies I interviewed 1016 00:41:13,420 --> 00:41:17,060 who at that time worked as a managing director for a bank. 1017 00:41:17,060 --> 00:41:20,100 When I interviewed her, the second time we uncovered 1018 00:41:20,100 --> 00:41:23,580 that she actually had rehearsed her own suicide twice. 1019 00:41:23,580 --> 00:41:26,540 And I was the first human being she shared this with. 1020 00:41:26,540 --> 00:41:29,020 I gave her the time and space and in the end, 1021 00:41:29,020 --> 00:41:32,380 we managed to call a therapist who worked with her. 1022 00:41:32,380 --> 00:41:35,460 She shared this story then eventually with her staff 1023 00:41:35,460 --> 00:41:38,460 internally in the bank and including her boss 1024 00:41:38,460 --> 00:41:42,620 and had very, very warm positive feedback and response. 1025 00:41:42,620 --> 00:41:46,940 She's now on sabbatical leave and really rebuilt her life 1026 00:41:46,940 --> 00:41:49,420 and she has a life beyond her wildest dreams. 1027 00:41:49,420 --> 00:41:51,940 Now her relationship that was falling apart 1028 00:41:51,940 --> 00:41:55,140 with her husband is repaired and they are feeling great. 1029 00:41:55,140 --> 00:41:56,780 And she's just so happy. 1030 00:41:56,780 --> 00:41:59,300 So she had a similar experience as me 1031 00:41:59,300 --> 00:42:01,020 all because she was vulnerable. 1032 00:42:01,020 --> 00:42:04,060 So she will be also covered in my next book 1033 00:42:04,060 --> 00:42:06,380 and many of the other leaders who share their stories 1034 00:42:06,380 --> 00:42:09,500 and to see how their life are changing. 1035 00:42:09,500 --> 00:42:10,980 That's fantastic. 1036 00:42:10,980 --> 00:42:13,580 Do you have a, is it coming out sometime next year 1037 00:42:13,580 --> 00:42:15,700 or do you have any timeline? 1038 00:42:15,700 --> 00:42:19,100 Yeah, I will be writing it in one year more basically 1039 00:42:19,100 --> 00:42:22,300 and then it should be out by end of next year. 1040 00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:24,700 As we wrap up Nick, I mean, thank you again 1041 00:42:24,700 --> 00:42:26,860 for being so vulnerable, right? 1042 00:42:26,860 --> 00:42:29,060 For sharing so much with us today. 1043 00:42:29,060 --> 00:42:32,060 And I'm sure that it's going to be useful 1044 00:42:32,060 --> 00:42:35,420 for anyone out there listening who is thinking, you know, 1045 00:42:35,420 --> 00:42:36,940 I'm going through this by myself 1046 00:42:36,940 --> 00:42:39,020 and I don't know who to talk to. 1047 00:42:39,020 --> 00:42:41,660 Just hearing your story is very inspirational 1048 00:42:41,660 --> 00:42:44,340 because it says, you know, whether it's your wife, 1049 00:42:44,340 --> 00:42:47,780 your best friend, just reach out to somebody, you know, 1050 00:42:47,780 --> 00:42:49,700 somebody who cares about you will help you 1051 00:42:49,700 --> 00:42:51,620 if you can't do it yourself. 1052 00:42:51,620 --> 00:42:53,580 And so as we wrap up today, I mean, 1053 00:42:53,580 --> 00:42:56,060 what would you like your legacy to be Nick? 1054 00:42:56,060 --> 00:42:58,700 Well, I want to continue down this path, 1055 00:42:58,700 --> 00:43:00,340 the one I am on now. 1056 00:43:00,340 --> 00:43:02,420 And I believe I'm on the right path. 1057 00:43:02,420 --> 00:43:03,260 I feel so. 1058 00:43:03,260 --> 00:43:05,940 I feel fully alive in doing what I'm doing. 1059 00:43:05,940 --> 00:43:08,020 I get goosebumps of meeting people 1060 00:43:08,020 --> 00:43:09,500 who are a few days in recovery, 1061 00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:11,700 like the gentleman I met this morning 1062 00:43:11,700 --> 00:43:14,580 and spending my Sunday afternoon talking to him 1063 00:43:14,580 --> 00:43:16,100 is the time I want to do. 1064 00:43:16,100 --> 00:43:17,940 And I want to continue down this path. 1065 00:43:17,940 --> 00:43:21,780 So I hope that people will continue to remember me 1066 00:43:21,780 --> 00:43:23,580 that I was there for them when needed. 1067 00:43:23,580 --> 00:43:25,860 And that gives me happiness. 1068 00:43:27,020 --> 00:43:28,380 It's very beautiful. 1069 00:43:28,380 --> 00:43:31,660 And I'm sure you're helping so many people already 1070 00:43:31,660 --> 00:43:33,620 and will continue to help more. 1071 00:43:33,620 --> 00:43:34,980 So thank you so much, Nick. 1072 00:43:35,940 --> 00:43:37,580 Thank you, Erika, for covering this. 1073 00:43:37,580 --> 00:43:39,980 And thanks to all the listeners as well. 1074 00:43:39,980 --> 00:43:41,980 Thank you for listening today. 1075 00:43:41,980 --> 00:43:45,140 I hope this has been a useful investment of your time. 1076 00:43:45,140 --> 00:43:47,420 If you feel inspired by this episode, 1077 00:43:47,420 --> 00:43:49,980 please rate it and consider subscribing. 1078 00:43:49,980 --> 00:44:08,980 I'm keen to know how it's impacted you.