A Thoughtful Approach to Leading Culture Change with Shiao-Yin Kuik

[00:00:00] Shiao-Yin Kuik: And a person can lead their life, lead their team, lead the organization for a very, very long time, uh, without taking a look at what's going on deep within. Yeah. And if there's a lot of brokenness, it will come up.
[00:00:16] Erika Behl: I think from working in corporate space, I can a hundred percent agree with you. You can't practice empathy with your team unless you practice empathy with yourself and understand yourself.
It's so bizarro, but it's,
[00:00:32] Shiao-Yin Kuik: it's true.
[00:00:38] Erika Behl: Welcome to Every Moment is a Choice. I'm your host, Erika Behl I invite you to join me as we delve into the lives of inspiring and diverse individuals who navigate life with intention. Living with purpose starts with embracing the power you have in every moment. If you enjoy this episode, please subscribe.
Don't forget to subscribe. Okay. Hello, everyone. I am thrilled to have Shiao-Yin Kuik on the podcast today. Hello, Shiao-Yin. Hello. Good to see you. Nice to see you too. Uh, so for our listeners, if you are based in Singapore, you may already know Shiao-Yin. Uh, but for those of you who are maybe not based in Singapore, I'll give you a bit of a background on her.
So she is a cultural change strategist. She is the founder of Common Ground Consultancy and Civic Center, is based in Singapore, obviously, and hosts the Finding Common Ground podcast. She also publishes a newsletter. called The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly, read by change leaders across many organizations.
But, interestingly, Shiao-Yin has also sat at the intersection of policy making and cultural change at a more societal level. From 2014 to 2018, she served two terms as a nominated member of parliament in Singapore, Where she spoke about, um, parliamentarians addressing the challenges and the needs of youth, especially in Singapore.
And she went somewhat viral for her amazing speeches in parliament. And she now works and is an entrepreneur in social enterprise. Totally thrilled to have her here today. And to learn more about what she does, but also her story. And how she found her compass. So thanks for joining.
[00:02:32] Shiao-Yin Kuik: Yeah, happy to be here.
There's a lot of ground to cover, so I'm just going to go in whatever direction you want to go.
[00:02:39] Erika Behl: Awesome. Awesome. So let's start off a little bit. Tell us more about your, your current work.
[00:02:45] Shiao-Yin Kuik: Okay. So my, my current work, if I had to describe it simply, I help, uh, people and their organizations take a look at what's working and what's not working in their culture.
Okay. Awesome. Awesome. Could be a team culture, group culture, uh, all culture. And I strategize with the internal change team on what's the best way forward given there are limits of budget and time and all that. So that solution or that strategy can look like coaching. It can look like facilitation of a crucial conversation or developing curriculum for the internal change team to sort of like, uh, push out.
Yeah, so it, it looks different for different clients. Yeah.
[00:03:29] Erika Behl: Nice. Nice. And you work with, um, kind of corporations or nonprofit organizations or across all types of organizations? Oh,
[00:03:37] Shiao-Yin Kuik: it's quite a, uh, it's a spectrum of clients. Uh, most of my clients would be from healthcare, uh, uh, from the civil service, uh, nonprofits.
[00:03:49] Erika Behl: Nice. And, um, the work that you're doing now, um, how long have you been doing this in particular? Is this?
[00:03:57] Shiao-Yin Kuik: You know, that's a tough question to answer because the work evolved along the way. I would say I started when I was 22. So I'm 47 this year, yeah, and same. Oh, great. Yeah, cool. A fellow midlifer. Oh, yes.
No, it's like so much, so much changes and so much is so different from when you're in your 20s. I guess when I started at 22. I wouldn't have called it cultural change strategy, but when I look back in time, I think that's what it always was. But I just didn't have the name for it. And I didn't have the name for it for the longest time.
[00:04:42] Erika Behl: So what, what drew you into it? What kind of, um, either sparked your, sparked your interest or ignited the kind of a, a fire in you? It's a,
[00:04:52] Shiao-Yin Kuik: it's a bit of a weird story because I, I didn't have a career in mind. I didn't have a profession that I was attracted to. Where do I begin? I think it really began when I, in university, I, I was studying architecture.
And I studied it not because I was fond of it. It was just a placeholder thing to study while I, uh, while I tried to figure out, actually, what do I want to do? Um, but it, uh, but it was in architecture school when I became, uh, when I became a Christian, right? And, and when I, when you convert, uh, at, at 20, it's not a spur of the moment decision for me.
It was a If I'm going to, sort of like, adopt a whole new worldview, then what's it about? And, uh, Honestly, at that time, uh, the biggest question for me as a 20 year old was, uh, God, do you want me to be an architect? You know, is this the point of it? Like, you saved me in architecture school, uh, so that I can pursue this as a career.
And, you know, it's, I didn't get any like message from the universe or something. It was just, it was just like a weird sense of like, I'm supposed to figure this out. You know, and so what was clear to me is, uh, I, my life has a purpose. I may not know what that purpose is, but I have been given, uh, certain talents or certain inclinations and Let me figure that out.
Right. And so if I had to cut that long story short, uh, that was the beginning of a search for, uh, meaning, I suppose, like a search for like what, what is, what does my life mean? What's it about? And it happened that when I was 22, I had Uh, two acquaintances from university who, uh, they, they were like friends from university and they were public school teachers and they were encountering a specific, uh, problem that I resonated with, which was, um, why was it that, uh, 18 year olds graduating from the Singapore education system were, you know, not a bit lost?
They could be like top scoring students or students who are failing out of school, but there was just a general sense of like lostness of, of what's my life about. And for me, I, uh, the personal meaning I was making out of it is that's not an acceptable outcome for an education system, right? Like, um, how is it that you can produce, uh, kids that are still a bit lost about who they are and, and the implications of that on society, which is.
Well, if I'm lost about who am I, then I'm not going to know what I'm supposed to do with myself. So my friends, uh, thought it would be a good idea. And this is like a 20 something way of looking at life. Like, Oh, uh, you know, let's, let's start, uh, let's start a learning center, an experimental learning center where It's a Trojan horse, right?
So one thing that you need to know about Singapore, if you, uh, are new to our culture, is, uh, it's a culture that's obsessed with the idea of tuition. Uh, that means like you go to after school, you want to like pile on extra curricular learning so that you can really excel at the exams or something. Uh, and, and you can't break that cultural habit.
Uh, so we thought, let's, uh, Trojan horse this, since parents are more than prepared to pay for extracurricular tuition, uh, but they will never pay for, oh, sign up to teach my kid the meaning of life. They won't pay money for that. Uh, so, all right, let's, let's tackle the exam. And at the time there was, uh, uh, an, a subject called general paper.
Which is essentially, how can, uh, like, what are your answers to some of the current issues in the world? So we thought, let's help them, uh, clear that exam, but we are going to, um, weave in particular ways of thinking about the world, uh, thinking about world issues so that they don't just get a great exam score, uh, they also get a perspective about how to think about the world.
So that's where it all began for me, trying to figure out how do I help an 18 year old think differently about the world? So that they'll do something different in the world.
[00:09:42] Erika Behl: Yeah, and like you mentioned, um, so my children are in Singaporean schools. They were born here. And so I, I feel some of what you're talking about with, um, What's stressed in schools versus maybe what they should be learning and and it's probably better today than it was 20 years ago But still and I don't having been you know raised in the US and the American school system I think there's some truth to what you're saying about not just Singaporean schools I mean, there's a lot of focus on on preparing people to pass exams or academics, but not learning so much about Kind of world affairs Yeah.
Or, or how to think about things. So you started with students and you were a Trojan horse and you were tapping into that lucrative, uh, kind of, well, the need for Singaporean parents to invest in tuition, uh, to help their children, um, but teaching that along the way. And so that developed into a, a learning center and then even more, right?
Yeah.
[00:10:46] Shiao-Yin Kuik: Yeah. So, um, it was, uh, so I did business. Uh, with my original partners for close to 20 years and it went from that learning center that was called School of Thought to, oh, let's start to publish magazines, uh, so that the teachers and the parents reading it can also like get sort of like a mental model shift, uh, and then it went into, oh, let's start like cafes.
It's all gonna sound so random, you know, uh, but it was just from this desire to like something needs to change in this culture. Let's use business. Or different forms of business as an intervention and let's just experiment, uh, and it's great that we didn't overthink it. It doesn't make a lot of sense, but it also makes sense backwards.
But anyway, we started cafes just to like, oh, let's get the general public also interested in certain issues and what are small little ways that we can get them to care about, let's say, water or food issues. Over two decades, um, the, I guess like we, like we aged as well, you know. And, and the ideas that you think, uh, made a lot of sense when you were in your twenties, uh, they start to evolve.
Uh, it wasn't all bad, but it was also like, okay, like this needs to tweak here and there. And, uh, at some point, actually from the 10th year point of doing business, uh, the first 18 year olds that we taught were now 28. And they had just entered the workforce and the way they thought, the way they, uh, held themselves in their first workplaces, I think perked enough interest in at least one or two organizations.
And so that's when we were surprised by our, by the first organizational inquiries about like, what is it that you were teaching the kids? Because it's great for the workplace. And do you train adults? You know, so, so we didn't think about training adults, but that's where it all began. Uh, so that's all the roots of where I am today, where actually I don't do much work with young people anymore.
I haven't for, uh, almost a decade. Uh, I do a lot of work more on the adults. Yeah, I mean, my, my, my first kids, the first kids are like 40. They have children now. It's a bit scary, uh, but it's also great because you can kind of see like the mark you left behind. Yeah. One of my students actually works for me, uh, right now in my current consultancy.
She's like my, uh, second in command , so That's fantastic. Yeah, she's great.
[00:13:36] Erika Behl: Yeah. So what was it that you were teaching these students at the time that they then took into the workplace with them? Like, was there, uh, was an attribute, a way of thinking, a way of questioning?
[00:13:49] Shiao-Yin Kuik: Uh, yeah. Um, um, all of that. Um, so you.
I guess it's, it's good to understand that when I was in my twenties, trying to teach these like 18 year olds, it's not that I knew the answer, but I knew the problem and I wanted to solve that problem. So it's like, if my, if the problem was, and the ultimate goal for me was I need them to exit into adult life and working life with a more, adult or professional, uh, framework of thinking, then I had to go and hunt for what are the professional frameworks of thinking that, say someone who's really trying to solve poverty, what is the framework that they would be using?
You know, and so not, not looking at the framework to pass a exam paper, but a framework to actually deal with poverty. So I, so, It was taking, um, real life frameworks that people would use, uh, to solve some big problems and trying to find a simpler way to teach that to the kid and tell them to use it in their exam paper.
And that would make them instantly sound a lot more adult. It's like, it's like, wow, who is this adult kid, you know, who can talk to me about, let's weigh out the short term and the long term. Let's look at individual interests and collective interests. Let's look at what needs to change about the status quo and what doesn't need to change.
So it's giving them like a new framework. And also a new way of like approaching the problem.
[00:15:25] Erika Behl: And you said once they got into the workplace, they were able to translate some of this way of thinking into their professional lives as well. Yes. Yeah. Lovely. Lovely. So along the way, this was all going on when you were, you were approached to join as a nominated member of parliament, I think in 2014 or around 2014.
Yeah. So tell us, tell us a little bit about like, what does nominated member of parliament mean anyway? Yeah, it's a,
[00:15:57] Shiao-Yin Kuik: it's a bit of a, a funny, unique looking institution in Singapore. So, uh, How do I summarize this? Okay, uh, if you are new to Singapore's political history, uh, there's only a few things you need to know.
Uh, we, uh, we have mainly been led by one political party for a pretty long time. And the, and because the, the one political party has had such dominance in the parliament, in our parliamentary system. Uh, the, it doesn't feed the need of the electorate for like alternative voices. Right. So the, the dominant political party, which is the PAP, uh, felt that, well, let's have some, uh, seats in parliament blocked out for this alternative voices that the people want.
Um, so, so that they are actually elected, uh, opposition members of parliament. Uh, so they get in by election, but there is like. you know, about like let's say 10 seats put aside for nominated members of parliament. So they didn't have to run for an election. Uh, they are nominated either by the sector or, uh, you can actually self nominate, uh, and submit like whatever you think is like a proof of like your experience and all that.
And a committee of elected members of parliament would then convene and decide like, okay, we want like, these 10 in. Uh, so, um, I actually, uh, never, really bothered with uh, this whole like nominated member of parliament thing. Uh, but my name had been, uh, nominated by, uh, the sector. Yeah. For, for, for the work that I was doing with, uh, school of thought, the thought collective, basically.
That's what my businesses were known back then. And, uh, I was approached and actually my first response was, um, No, thank you. Because, um, it's, uh, because you My, my first initial reaction was I, I don't want to sacrifice my privacy, uh, because I, I don't want or need a political ish position. It's not something interesting to me, uh, but I was asked to, well, think about it, uh, and, and I did.
And, and one of the, I suppose, deal makers for me is I had to ask myself, Actually, why am I so quick to say no? And it felt like of hypocrisy, that if I was teaching the kids in the classroom, when an opportunity comes up to do something that matters, you want to say yes to it. You want to like, take it up.
Uh, and then here I am like, yeah, I want to be in parliament. I'm like, no, thanks. Privacy is more important to me. And I felt like, okay, bit of a hypocrisy there. Uh, so I felt compelled that, uh, I think I should say yes, um, even though I'm quite unsure of what, uh, the role is about or whether I'm even a good fit.
Uh, and of course, the privacy thing mattered to me. But yeah, the second reason why I said yes is if everybody says when they are presented with an opportunity, um, to Be part of the decision making of a country, even if it's not a very politically powerful position, then, uh, where, where will things go if all of us just say no?
So I thought, all right, fine, let me just say yes and figure this out. It's sort of like the story of my life. I say yes to the meaningful thing and then sort of like figure out like what on earth did you get yourself into?
[00:20:04] Erika Behl: That's lovely. And, uh, did your faith play a role in that? Did you feel like, um, you.
And you leaned on that to make that decision as well. Was that part of the
[00:20:14] Shiao-Yin Kuik: A bit? I guess in the sense that my faith helps to give me courage where I don't really have much, uh, courage. And it's the courage of, well, if the worst thing happens, you know. It's going to be fine, you know, because, uh, I, yeah, there is some spiritual comfort in what is the worst that the world can do.
Yeah, when like, you are loved by God, you are his child. And yeah, and, and, and he has made you for a purpose and those may not be like, okay, that doesn't answer my situation, but, but there is some philosophical comfort in, okay, if I believe that those are the guardrails of my life, then, um, then how bad could this thing be?
You know? Yeah. How bad could it be?
[00:21:21] Erika Behl: Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a lovely, um, sentiment to share, I think. Yeah. Because even in. in secular work, you know, your, your governmental work is obviously secular, but you are, your faith plays a role in your own decision making behind that. I think that's a beautiful thing, actually, because I'm all about finding a person's compass, right?
And I think we all have to do that for ourselves, whether it's a specific faith that you believe in, whether it's kind of a, a life philosophy or a mantra or something like that, something that guides you underneath, I think. So that's lovely. So when you were, when you were a nominated member of parliament and you said that the sector that you kind of represented was youth or was there something within youth that you were supposed to be like your portfolio while you
[00:22:10] Shiao-Yin Kuik: were there?
Yeah, so that's a bit of a strange thing. So the, Well, the sector, so I guess my sector would have been the people sector, which is a whole hodgepodge of social interest community groups and all that. Uh, there isn't any instruction of like, uh, who are you to represent or what are you to represent? It's kind of like, uh, well, your name's been put up, the committee like decided like, all right, fine, you're a good fit.
Um, now, sink or swim. And so I had to piece it together for myself, like, uh, if I have a seat here, which could have gone to someone that was elected, or could have gone to someone else, then what shall I do with it? What's the most meaningful thing that I can do with it? Uh, because I was clear I couldn't speak on everything, uh, it's impossible.
Um, I, I could only speak on issues that are true to my experience, true to my skill set. And honestly, in Parliament, my first few months, the thoughts were more about, uh, what am I doing here? I'm not a politician. I am not. Uh, academic, I am not a lawyer and it was a lot of I am not a statements in my head and the, the reversal I had to do for myself was while that is all true, if I stay on that, I will have no voice to speak because I don't know what I can speak about.
So I had to really like do some soul searching for myself then who, what is it that I feel I have authority to speak about and the identities I chose was. Uh, well, I am a voter, I am a citizen, I am a woman, I am a mother, you know, it came down to like these kind of things, like, let me write down all of these things that I have experiences around and skills.
And those became the areas of interest that I chose to speak about.
[00:24:24] Erika Behl: It sounds like a good method. I mean, there are so many, I think there are so many people out there who, you know, have are a bit afraid to, to speak up about things because I even suffer from this from times when I'm saying, Oh, I'm not this.
I'm not that. What, what business do I have?
[00:24:41] Shiao-Yin Kuik: Yeah, I know. It's interesting because like the, I, when I think back about my, I spent three and a half years in parliament. Um, and I think back on that experience as, uh, quite a pivotal moment for me. Uh, Not just as a person, but as a leader and as a person who trains leaders, um, It's a big thing for me to let people know, uh, that you can't, uh, you can't lose your voice and you can't, uh, disempower yourself by assuming that you are not, you are not, you are not, you know, you're not so many things.
And while that's all true, who are you then? And when I train, for example, say middle managers in an organization and middle managers stereotypically feel quite disempowered. They don't know how to, let's say, manage up. And I've to teach them to literally find what is the identity that you can stand on that gives you a similar level of power as, let's say, even the most top person in your organization.
And it comes down to very existential or philosophical things. They don't ever need to say it out loud, but they should at least say it to themselves. Simple identity scripts like, I'm a human being and they are a human being too. Well, I'm imperfect, but I want to fix this and they are imperfect and they want to fix this and it gives you that peer to peer power so that you can put your voice on the table.
Okay, this is what's working. This is what's not working. And hopefully they too. They see that as well. They see that sincerity. Yeah. And they see that you are not going to minimize your own voice. Uh, so that's become quite a theme for me in the training and the coaching, uh, that I do for organizations.
[00:26:36] Erika Behl: Sounds like finding common ground. The method, right? It is. Yeah. So you learned that yourself. So you're saying you went through this personal process of growth where kind of in parliament, no one was giving you the manual. Like, no one was handholding you and saying this is how you do it, this is how you find something, so you found it yourself.
Yes. And, and did you, I mean, when you were serving that role in Parliament, um, I guess, did you participate with, like, how did you feel you were going to make an impact? Were you actually a voting member of Parliament or were you just participating in speeches and, and queries and questions?
[00:27:17] Shiao-Yin Kuik: Well, so the nominated member of parliament, uh, does have voting rights for certain types of bills and all that, but for anything that, let's say, affects the constitution, you, you don't have that power to vote.
[00:27:30] Erika Behl: So your power was mainly within. What you could how you could influence people through your words or your questions pretty much. I mean
[00:27:41] Shiao-Yin Kuik: The bluntest way I can put this is nominated members of Parliament in the Singapore Parliament House You are the lowest in the political totem pole, right? I mean, it's not a bad thing, but I think it's a factual thing because you don't have a political party.
You are essentially an individual citizen who's been just put in there, you know, trying to figure things out. I suppose I wouldn't want anyone to have the wrong perception of what an NMP can do. You can't change the law. You don't have control of the house. Uh, but you have your voice. And you can highlight things that need to be highlighted, things that work really well and things that are maybe not working and should be spoken about.
And it's also how do you speak about it in a way that gets you heard. Not just by the people in the house, but by everybody else, uh, out there. And it was important for me to also figure out who might never get A place in this house to speak of their interests and their issues. Who could I authentically speak on behalf of?
Yeah, so it was important for me, uh, for example, to bring up issues of, um, inequality, like, like income inequality. Um, and, and when I speak about it, I wanted it to be as true as possible, uh, as. If this person was standing here right now, how would they want me to sound? And, and, and that's like a bit of like strange, like, okay, how do I?
Yeah, yeah, in a way that it's, it's not play acting and it's not speaking on behalf of you, but speaking as if you are here.
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There's a, there's a beautiful kind of quote that I heard when I started, started studying keynote speaking. And a lot of people think that keynote speaking is around your own ego and being up on stage and wanting to, wanting to share your views on everything. And somebody said, no, that's not, that's not what it's about at all.
It's, it's giving the voiceless. A stage, because you have the talent and the opportunity, you're here on the stage. So who are the voiceless that you're speaking on behalf of? Yes. That's a beautiful way I, I learned of thinking about it.
[00:31:39] Shiao-Yin Kuik: Mm. Yeah, it, it, it is so true, um, and, and I think especially important.
Uh, if you are given a position, a legitimate position to speak out on it. So it could be a parliamentary house. It could also be say your organization's town hall, you know, and, and say you are a middle manager and middle managers, not powerless. They may feel it sometimes, but they're technically not powerless.
Because if you get access into say a boardroom that maybe a ground staff will never get access to and you got to speak about their concerns in a way that is valid and authentic and reflects their, their reality. And, and, and it's, uh, and it's a, it's a gift in a way to let's say someone at the top who may not have the opportunity to also enter into that world.
Uh, to, to, to see and experience that. So I felt very much in a bridge building position. Like how do I talk about things that need to be talked about, but in a way that doesn't send a message that you are my enemy. You know, because the problems that we're talking about are complex and need everyone to work together.
So it's not strategic for me to piss you off when actually I need you as well at the table to do this. So I think I invested a lot of time in like writing and rewriting, uh, my first few years of speeches because it was like, this is my first time trying to figure this out and get it right. Uh, yeah, I spent weeks writing those speeches, but it taught me so much about how much work is required, uh, to do that.
[00:33:35] Erika Behl: I, I'm not surprised at all because I've, I've, I've, they're on YouTube, uh, some of them at least. And so you can watch, uh, Shiao-Yin in action if you just go on YouTube. And they are, I mean, you're a, you're a gifted orator. You know, you can tell the, the, the, um, research and the kind of construct, construction of the arguments that went on behind your speeches, which is, I think, Um, one of the reasons that people were very interested in them.
But one thing I have to ask you is, you know, we, we say we sometimes come in if you're, especially if you're a person who has, you have a sense of meaning and purpose and you're like, I, I could change things. I can change the world. Once you see how the sausage is made in a place like parliament or a big organization, you can sometimes become very jaded and you're like, Wow.
I came in here thinking it was going to be, how naive was I? Uh, uh, so did, did you have any of those moments or were you encouraged or frustrated by that?
[00:34:32] Shiao-Yin Kuik: It was, yeah, it was funny. I think that, I think I left parliament with, uh, honestly I left it less care bear, less like rainbows and sunshine. Um, maybe the better word is more sober.
Yeah, not because I saw bad things or cynical things. I did see and experience some of that, but I think it was just seeing how human everyone really is and that's the, it's almost like the open secret that nobody really wants to address. across any organization or system. The ones who we wish and hope would know all of the answers and fix whatever situations they are, they are just as human as us, you know, and that can be both a disenchanting thought, but it can also be a realistic, Uh, thought to have that they are no better nor worse than you and that's scary, you know.
It's like, you know, it's like if you give me the job as the minister of blah blah blah, would I show up any better? In some ways, yeah, but maybe in some ways the same or even worse, you know. So it was a, I think it was very sobering, uh, to experience the humanity, uh, upfront.
[00:36:16] Erika Behl: I think that's something that is, as, as an AmErikan, although I've been in Singapore for 12 years and I'm a PR and everything, I still hold a U.
S. passport and seeing the, the discourse within the AmErikan, within Congress, which would be the equivalent. And the, it's almost seems like over time, it's devolved into a state where people have a really hard time seeing each other as humans anymore, and more as what party they support or what kind of platform they support rather than, uh, uh, can, uh, Um, a love of country, um, different, different ways to love a country and, and see its future and everything.
But Singapore, like you said, Singapore is such a, um, maybe I would say unified rather than, rather than just single party, but quite unified in its, in its, uh, vision for the future. But yeah, that seems like a really important lesson because it's something that I think we don't have enough of.
[00:37:25] Shiao-Yin Kuik: Yeah. Like, there was a, there was a sticky story that, uh, one of my pastors once shared in a sermon.
It stuck with me for a very long time. Uh, And he was just sharing about how there was once he was preaching, I suppose, something about marriage, and then an old couple came up to him after service and they were like crying and he was like, okay, you know, what's going on? And they said that, well, thank you for that sermon because it's the first time we have realized we are not each other's enemies, you know, and in the Christian context, it was like, you know, the.
Satan is the enemy, you know, but, but, but the, the, the, the big, uh, sentence that had broken them down was like, we've just realized we're not each other's enemies, but we've been fighting the wrong person. And, and that stuck with me because I see it everywhere, you know, like, especially in politics. Like, like why?
Even if I disagree with you and even if I'm super frustrated and angry with you, uh, there is that temptation to like, I will now make you my enemy. And I think that's where all of the problems start because we start attacking the person and not attacking the problem, which is substantial, you know, and I have it as a principle for myself that no matter how much I feel aggrieved or like, Ugh, right?
It's to like curb that temptation to treat the person as less than human. And, and it's tough, especially when you feel, um, really, really, um, angry or offended, uh, by what this person has done. Yeah. But I think if, if, if a leader especially, uh, can't do that leadership work of like making sure you have the right perspective on what is the enemy, um, yeah, then, then you're, uh, you're, you're at risk of.
Creating a lot of, a lot more brokenness in the world. Yeah, then a lot of wholeness. And it's important to me that, uh, we try to leave the world a bit more whole, uh, than when we first began.
[00:39:58] Erika Behl: I love, I love the, the insights you're sharing. Um, and so, You've taken, obviously, a lot of way, a lot away from being in Parliament and experiencing that.
Yeah. And you gave back as well. Did you, did you collect speeches into a book and you published a book? Uh, actually I have not. Oh, did someone
[00:40:21] Shiao-Yin Kuik: publish a book of your speeches? No, um, uh, well, a publisher called Epigram. took one of my speeches. Ah, okay. That speech was called the power of the people. And it was a speech that I made, um, yeah, in parliament where I brought up the desires of the young electorate.
Yeah. So, so, so they published that. And I've, I've always thought about maybe I should just like publish all the speeches one day, but it's always like in the back of my mind, haven't really like thought about it.
[00:40:58] Erika Behl: So chronologically after you left that and then went back to your social enterprise business, um, tell me more because your business has changed now.
So you have evolved. From working in partnership, now you're working by yourself and everything. What has been the challenges of kind of from the business side of just running a social enterprise and making that your career? For the
[00:41:22] Shiao-Yin Kuik: term social enterprise, um, and I'll share with you why I'm like nitpicky about that.
Uh, so, so I haven't used the term social enterprise for a while. I feel all businesses ought to be social in nature. And I feel almost like when we use the phrase social enterprise, it's like, okay, there's these cute little social enterprises and everybody else gets to be antisocial, you know? So, uh, after a while I decided, like, maybe it's not the best phrase to use.
Um, but yeah, uh, the, the original businesses that I ran were, uh, we did call it social enterprises at first. But over the years I've changed my perspective on that term. So we were a socially oriented company. business. It was profit oriented, but it was also social oriented. Well, okay. So, so, so let's close off that loop.
So I suppose one, one challenge of running a socially oriented business is there is a certain price to be paid when you choose to have a social purpose and not just a profit purpose. Right. Uh, and, and the price just means like, um, yeah, you make different decisions around money. Uh, you make different decisions around what you choose to invest your money in.
So it's always going to be costly in some sense on the entrepreneur, but I think it's less costly on the world if more enterprises decided to invest. we're going to take on a social purpose as part of our work. Yeah. So I would advocate for all businesses to be social in nature, even if there is some cost on you.
Yeah. Because think of the cost you save for the world. Yep. The other, like, I suppose, like, um, uh, problems I've encountered along the way, I think when you start a business, when you're in your twenties, And you don't quite understand yourself. You don't quite understand the work. You don't quite understand, uh, the piece, the, the, the people that you've chosen to work with.
You don't know what you're looking at sometimes. Yeah. And that's from a pure, you are too young, too inexperienced. And I wouldn't ever say therefore 20 somethings don't go and set up a business. You know, it's to acknowledge that when you do start a business in your twenties, uh, you're gonna make a lot of mistakes on all those fronts.
Mistakes on yourself, mistakes with your organization, mistakes with a business partnership. And without going into like too much detail, there is a good reason why, uh, at the 20th year mark, uh, I decided that the best decision at this point was let's dissolve the business partnership. Yeah, because while there were parts of it that worked, there was a lot of it that didn't work.
And it didn't work for me. It was a hard, but necessary decision to let's just, uh, close it all up. Allow each other to try something new. And to live something new,
[00:44:59] Erika Behl: they say that like everything grows like I, I can't imagine starting a business in my twenties and still in my forties, doing the same thing like I, I worked in corporate.
I didn't own my own business, but I had to change like every two years. I had, I just see a new environment. I had to work with new people. So it seems like almost a natural, um, progression, but still, it must be hard when you've poured so much into it.
[00:45:26] Shiao-Yin Kuik: I often describe it as, I think this is what a divorce must feel like, even though I've never been divorced.
It's, I think it's, uh, because some people will come up and ask like, Oh, aren't you sad that, you know, you had to close down a business 20 years? Like, that's so sad. And I'm like, well, yeah, it, it, it, there are parts of it that's definitely sad and definitely I have grief about it. I also experienced a lot of freedom from the decision, you know, uh, it's not what I would have wanted.
It's not what I got into this for, like, nobody gets married to, like, plan a divorce, you know. Right, yeah. Yeah, so, so similar in that sense, uh, but as you realize that, uh, that we are different and the differences were okay until they weren't okay anymore. Right. And then you got to decide like, well, maybe now's the time for that necessary ending.
[00:46:29] Erika Behl: And when you, after you dissolve that business and you were started looking ahead, did you know it? Did you know exactly what you wanted to do from there? Or did you kind of take some time to step back and say, okay, now if I'm going to build something else, I need to think about that first.
[00:46:46] Shiao-Yin Kuik: Uh, well, it was both circumstantial and personal that, uh, there isn't time for a, you know, like a, like a nice little rest period, uh, because the dissolving of the business was on the back, on the back of a pretty severe internal organizational crisis that I had to manage and lead my team through.
So one of the outcomes of managing that crisis was we have to dissolve the business. Because we are clearly not, uh, going to be able to be in partnership with each other, right? Uh, fundamental disagreements, uh, with approach. So it was a, it was a disagreement with the, the partnership. Not so much the work.
I still believed in the work. I wanted to do the work. So I Continued doing the training and consulting and all that that I was already doing and it was just let's park that now under It was one of the how to say so the thought collective was an entity of different private limited. So it was Agreeing with my ex business partners that I would take one of them Uh, and I would run it as a solo, uh, founder with like, whatever, um, uh, remnants of the team, uh, that was still left.
So I continue doing the same work, uh, but with a different atmosphere, with a different team and with other people. an approach that is more true to me.
[00:48:27] Erika Behl: So tell us about that approach. What did you learn from the whole experience? And that translates into how you run your business now.
[00:48:33] Shiao-Yin Kuik: Oh, my goodness, such a big, uh, philosophical like lessons from the whole, uh, 20 years plus crisis management.
So the field of my work sits in. Uh, organizational development, leadership development, team development, that's a good sector, but I realize you can't do that work well if you don't bridge it into, uh, spiritual development. And by spiritual development, I don't necessarily mean, uh, one particular faith.
What I mean is. If there's things stirring deep in a person's heart, in a person's spirit, in a person's, uh, mind, um, that aren't working, it's all going to spill out onto their teams, their organizations and the systems that they lead. And I realized that's been a missing jigsaw piece for me when I train or when I coach.
So I no longer train or coach or consult without, um, integrating a little bit of depth in that direction. So, for example, uh, to make it a bit clearer, I help people look at their attachment stacks. You know, like, um, are they secure or insecurely attached, and where did they come from? So I'm not a psychologist, uh, but I think of my work as like, almost like, psychology and spiritual adjacent, you know, like, uh, it's sort of like prompting people to, to, to go there, you know, because if you don't go there, um, a lot of things are not going to go well and, and a person can lead their life, lead their team, lead their organization for a very, very long time, uh, without taking a look at what's going on deep within.
Yeah. And if there's a lot of brokenness, it will come up eventually. So true. So true.
[00:50:58] Erika Behl: And I think from working in corporate space for 16 years, I can 100 percent agree with you both in what I observed from, from other leaders, but also when I worked my way up the chain and became a leader myself. I found that that was exactly the case.
You can't practice empathy with your team unless you practice empathy with yourself and understand yourself and, and, and have grace, you know, within you, um, it's always going to come out.
[00:51:30] Shiao-Yin Kuik: It's like, it's so bizarro, but it's, it's true, you know, so it got me so interested that, um, I mean, I'm, I'm in the midst of a little personal research project, uh, called The Soul at Work, where I sort of like put it out there, like, you know, um, here's a bunch of survey questions, uh, professionals and leaders out there, fill it up if you want.
And it's asking people like, questions around what do they think someone is talking about when they say, Oh, I've lost my soul at work. Oh man, this organization is soulless. I'm so dispirited working on this team because we use these words so casually, but I don't think we've had a very good, um, professional conversation about actually, when people say that it's pretty like, uh, it's pretty deep stuff, you know, and it's pretty serious, you know, that's not take it too casually when someone says like, Oh, this sector is soulless.
That's, that means there's something really, really, really needing to change in that sector.
[00:52:34] Erika Behl: If there's, if there's anything I learned about kind of, cause obviously you and I are kind of in the Gen X, uh, generation and everything. So our twenties, well, my 20 at least working in corporate was you just do whatever the boss tells you to do.
Like you work your way up, you just, you're a grunt basically. But today's generation of 20 year olds seems to be. You know, people will put a label on them saying, Oh, they're unmotivated. They're lazy. They just want, they want too much of the life on the work life balance. Um, but what I've found talking to some people is that they're looking for purposeful work.
They're willing to put in if it means something to them. And so if you're leading a group of younger. workers today. Yeah. Like, I think authenticity is now thrown around a lot, you being an authentic leader, but it seems like this is in such a missing element because people are not going to follow you unless they really detect or they can really detect.
Yeah. Are you coming from a place of you really believe in this and you have some soul behind it? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:53:45] Shiao-Yin Kuik: I, I, I actually am. Uh, I am excited. Uh, on behalf and also slightly scared for the younger generation entering into the workplace, because they are definitely very different and they are not too afraid of using their voice, although that can be lost along the way, if they meet the wrong, uh, boss.
What they're holding the system or the organization to take a look at, it's not wrong. You know, uh, it's fine that they challenge, uh, respectfully, like does this system still work? You know, uh, does our working week need to look like that? Does our salary scale need to look like that? Uh, those are worthy questions to tangle with.
And what we can do across the generations is to help each other have that conversation, uh, honestly and respectfully and kindly, but let's not be afraid to go where their questions are leading us. Because sometimes it's the scary conclusion of, you're right, actually. This is built on a broken foundation.
We should never have assumed that. And, and someone needs to say that. I, my whole team is. Mostly millennials, actually. Uh, and that they're delightful to work with. And I would definitely urge every organization to not back down from the challenge that a new generation wants to present to us. Yeah, because if not them, then who, you know?
[00:55:25] Erika Behl: Yeah, yeah. And as they age into more leadership positions, because, I mean, most people will kind of, um, take on more leadership positions in their 30s, or getting close to 40, when they're actually managing a big team and they have a big influence sphere, uh, versus being an individual contributor. It's interesting to see how that will play out because I think for a lot of us Gen Xers who were raised in, in one system, we came to this midlife, um, kind of revelation, like I had an enlightenment.
I went through burnout myself and, and said, yeah, I do need to actually think about my own values and, and come, how I come across as a leader. And I find that other people are examining this now of our age, um, but, but perhaps people who are growing up more with, um, With more it being okay to talk about these things.
Because I was going to, I was going to ask you specifically, I mean, I spent my corporate career adjacent to the oil and gas industry where everything was profit driven, very kind of, if there's a soulless industry, I think oil and gas is, it's up there, it's up there. Oh dear. Um, but wait, in terms of like the types of leaders that you're working with, are they across the spectrum?
Are they, are they mainly men or women? Are they? a certain generation?
[00:56:47] Shiao-Yin Kuik: Uh, quite mixed. It's quite a mixed group that I get. Uh, yeah, of of age, of um, level in the system. Because it depends on who the client chooses to bring into the room. But of course who's often missing in the room which, uh, which the people in org will always happily point out is uh, I suppose the ones who need it the most.
They will be like, Oh, it's ABC in the room. Then I'm like, no. Then you'll be like, well, they are the ones who should be learning all these communication and power sharing. And I'll be like, yeah, yeah. There's still a lot of work to be done around that of how can we encourage organizations to actually, uh, work on and work with the people who most need to be in the room.
Yeah, and, and that's like soft, uh, not in the hands of a consultant or a trainer, but I can advise that of like this pattern that I see strongly urge you to bring in those, uh, people or those levels. Um, but it's very much left to the courage of all the determination or the ambition of the internal change team to make that happen.
Yeah, so, so that those are the constraints of working as an external consultant.
[00:58:10] Erika Behl: So, um, in terms of your, your continue, you've been doing this for a couple of years now. So you did this through the pandemic. Is that when you kind of
[00:58:18] Shiao-Yin Kuik: Well, uh, through the pandemic, while the world was going through its global crisis, that's when we, well, I was fixing my own organizational crisis.
Okay. Yeah, but, but yeah, I was, I was still doing consulting and, and training and all that, uh, in parallel of like doing my own organizational stuff. Yeah. Yes. I've been doing it for, yeah, I guess like consulting and working organizations. Let's say I've been doing it for maybe like about 10 years, slightly under 10 years.
[00:58:55] Erika Behl: And is there a kind of, if you think about what you want to achieve in your life, I guess, is there a bigger vision that you've implemented part of, but you still see more that you want to do or where, where do you see that going forward? Thank you.
[00:59:12] Shiao-Yin Kuik: Well, it's a great question because, um, because when you're approaching 50, you start to think of like the decades left in your life, you know, not so much the decades ahead, but oh, the decades I have left.
And I think of my life in decades because by the time I reach 50, I would say I'm someone who doesn't want to retire. I enjoy my work. So, but I can imagine at the most I can do it. two more decades, you know, at the most, uh, which means I only have, because I believe it takes about a decade to do something really well.
So I basically have two, two chances. Um, so I've given it some thought and the idea that I am currently swimming in is I started my Working life as a creative director, uh, that, that's how I started it off. Now I am, uh, executive director of like my organizations and all that. So I got into my head that what if I just like close off my life's journey, becoming a spiritual director.
So I've been like looking into what. Does it mean to, uh, get skilled up in, uh, spiritual direction, spiritual formation? I didn't even know, like those were things until I got curious about it. Yeah. And, and I, and I think my, my fantasy last decade or two of my life would include, uh, what if I could just run quiet
spiritual retreats for leaders? Who want to do that work, that internal work so that they can go out there and be the cycle breakers that they need to be for the system.
[01:01:15] Erika Behl: It sounds amazing because I think when you're talking about breaking the cycle and, and that the impact could be massive if you're working with
[01:01:27] Shiao-Yin Kuik: leaders.
Yeah, because there aren't enough, uh, safe spaces for leaders to be brave about what's really going on for them. Because too many of us look to them, whether political leaders or organizational leaders, we look to them. and treat them as if they ought to have the answers and they ought to get it right.
But where do they go to confess? Actually, there's a lot going wrong in me right now. Yeah, and that's a hard place to be in. Yeah, that's a really, really hard place to be in. Leadership is very lonely. Yeah, it can be, and I want it to not be. Yeah, it shouldn't be that way.
[01:02:24] Erika Behl: So I have, I have one last question for you because I know that, um, you have gone through your own journey and you, you know, you sought out meaning for yourself and everything.
And now that you're a mom and you have a child, would you Would you want to, this is kind of that hypothetical question, would you want to instill in your child kind of the, the same values you have, or would you encourage her to go out and seek her own meaning or her own faith? Like what, what would please you more if you're with your own child?
[01:03:04] Shiao-Yin Kuik: I want her to be kind to herself and to others. I want her to be curious about what's going on in the world. Because there's something deeply beautiful and meaningful, um, in the world, even though there's so much that's broken about it. And I think if she had those traits, I would trust that she will go in the direction that she needs to go.
Because I don't believe that any one of us can or should control the life of another person. And that includes our own kids. Scary as it is. Yeah, you can sort of stand around and create an environment of trust and love and stability that tells them wherever you go I'm going to be here and we're going to be walking this out together.
Wherever that
[01:04:19] Erika Behl: may be. Thank you. That was a beautiful sentiment to, to finish this off. Thank you so much for this conversation, Shiao-Yin. If
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